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Am I the only one who thought of this?

Demi-fiend

Metempsychosis
Supporter 2014
Besides, he already knew he was being defeated even before the two of them started the final showdown running at each other.

But regardless, he still wanted to have a last exchange with his brother and get it over with.
To be honest, I don't think that's what happened.

Vergil, deciding on one last "Hail Mary," really did think he could defeat Dante.

You said it yourself: he was surprised. So, I really think he was in denial here. He thought he could have won even while running towards Dante.

---------------------------------------------

It was only after Dante cut him through the torso did he truly realize he can't win.

So, instead of dying in the duel with honor, he decided to join the demons because he simply didn't have enough pride to face death against his brother's blade.

He didn't want to "get it over with." He wanted to have one last chance to actually defeat his brother permanently.

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Besides, I still think he'll keep these moves. They're popular with a lot of players out there (even the Vergil purists) so keeping them really wouldn't be such a bad idea.

He'll most likely be resurrected with his current moveset if there's ever a DMC5. I personally think the fans would really like to be able to use them again within the official storyline.
 
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ef9dante_oSsshea

Well-known Member
Premium
Xen-Omni 2020
Except there moves that belong to a prequel vergil who was reworked for gamplay purposes rather than the one that didn't have them in DMC3 or as nelo , capcom won't rework the entire canon just to revive vergil and give hime those new moves as canon when in DMC3 he had none of em
 

Demi-fiend

Metempsychosis
Supporter 2014
capcom won't rework the entire canon just to revive vergil and give him those new moves as canon when in DMC3 he had none of em
They'll just ignore canon and give those moves to his future self in DMC5.

Besides, most fans will probably write it off and say "he lost those moves when he brought up Temen-ni-gru" -- some sort of "blood and bodily" sacrifice -- or partial amnesia."

Stranger things have happened in the DMC universe, after all.

Samus also loses almost all of her moves with most of the Metroid games too -- it wouldn't be too far out to theorize the same could happen with Vergil.

It's a theory can be worked around -- besides, we don't know if Capcom will take away those moves from him or not in the sequel. I'm betting that they'll probably let Vergil keep them, regardless of canon.

I still think Vergil will be revived due to his popularity. If Dante can come back from hell (in DMC1 and maybe DMC2) then so can Vergil.
 

Foxtrot94

Elite Hunter
Premium
You said it yourself: he was surprised.

He was surprised before the final run.

So, instead of dying in the duel, he decided to join the demons because he simply didn't have enough pride to face death against his brother's blade.

First off, he didn't decide to "join the demons". Heck, he goes against Mundus the Demon King right after the fall! And that's another act of pride and over-confidence, btw ("If my father did it, I should be able to do it too.").

Second, the pride resides in the fact that rather than accepting Dante's help to return to the human world, he preferred to remain trapped in the Netherworld where his father lived before him. Simple as that.
 

ef9dante_oSsshea

Well-known Member
Premium
Xen-Omni 2020
Look lad if you wanna believe vergil is coming back in a DMC5 be my guest but your in a low minority of people who think capcom will put that much work in to the story just to please vergil fans.If anything I could see nero landing a big part in DMC5 over Vergil

il personally post an apology on your profile if vergil comes back but I can't see it happening at all , though it is always a possibilty
 

Demi-fiend

Metempsychosis
Supporter 2014
though it is always a possibility
Yeah, and we shouldn't dismiss that possibility until it's confirmed or denied.

It's alright. You won't need to apologize in the future. I'm just saying that Vergil keeping his moves will most likely happen.

He was surprised before the final run.
No, he was surprised both before and after the final run. He was shocked that his last gambit didn't pay off. You can see it with his wide-open eyes and gaping mouth expression.

He was shocked that the final run didn't work.

First off, he didn't decide to "join the demons". Heck, he goes against Mundus the Demon King right after the fall! And that's another act of pride and over-confidence, btw ("If my father did it, I should be able to do it too.").

Second, the pride resides in the fact that rather than accepting Dante's help to return to the human world, he preferred to remain trapped in the Netherworld where his father lived before him. Simple as that.
But he was working with the Hell Vanguard in the beginning. When the Vanguard came back he punished it for its failure to put up a decent fight against Dante.

Besides, the Hell Vanguard didn't attack Vergil. It was just standing there, as if awaiting orders.

---------------

Sure, he fought against the demons guarding the tower in the beginning, but who's to say that he had to fight them afterwards? Besides Beowulf, it looked like he was in league with the evil demons themselves.

---------------

The fact that he decided to fight against Mundus was just him wanting more power. That's it.

Besides, overconfidence does NOT mean true pride. It just means you're foolish.

Like his fight with Dante, Vergil thought he could actually win against Mundus because like you said, Vergil stated:

"If my father could do it, I should be able to do it too."

--------------

When he runs towards Mundus screaming, we don't see what happens after that. We never know if Mundus offered him a deal, or if he just memory-wiped Vergil with a wave of his hand.

We don't know how Mundus dealt with Vergil after Vergil was foolish enough to think he could win against Mundus.

If Vergil didn't have the pride to be defeated by Dante, then he almost certainly wouldn't have had the pride to be defeated by Mundus.

Mundus most likely wiped Vergil's memory before Vergil could even get close to him.

Or, perhaps Mundus offered Vergil power (because Vergil was more powerful as permanent DT Nero Angelo) and wiped his memory after that.

Or maybe the power that Mundus offered corroded Vergil's mind on its own and wiped his memory that way. That's probably what most likely happened.

--------------

Vergil didn't want to return to the human world because there really isn't any power there. He could only find it in the demon world. It has nothing to do with "True Pride."

Vergil knows that Sparda would be ashamed of the fact that his son would stay in a world he tried to hard to escape.

The Dark Son of Sparda knows this but doesn't care. Vergil went into the demon world and challenged Mundus because he thought he could actually defeat Mundus.

Vergil probably thought that Dante "just got lucky" and he still thinks he's the "stronger son of Sparda."

He really did think he could defeat Mundus because he thought that he was just as powerful as Sparda was.

This is Vergil being foolish, shameful, and cowardly up until the very end, when Mundus stopped him -- either by offering Vergil power or just plain wiping his memory before Vergil could even get close to him.

-------------

So... I still think that Vergil isn't proud. He thought Mundus was an easy target because in his mind, he's just as powerful as Sparda. Losing to Dante never changed that.

------------

Personally, I think if it ever occured to Vergil during his final battle with Mundus that he would lose, he would most likely just run away again like he did with Dante.
 
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Foxtrot94

Elite Hunter
Premium
He was shocked that his last gambit didn't pay off. You can see it with his wide-open eyes and gaping mouth expression.

Mah. To me, that expression was more like him waiting to see the result of the showdown, which obviously ended with him losing.
Didn't seem "shocked" to me.

The fact that he decided to fight against Mundus was just him wanting more power. That's it.

Besides, overconfidence does NOT mean true pride. It just means you're foolish.

Like his fight with Dante, Vergil thought he could actually win against Mundus because like you said, Vergil stated:

"If my father could do it, I should be able to do it too."

The way he delivers that line, make sme think he decided to fight Mundus more to prove himself to be capable of what his father did before him, thus living up to his legend, rather than acquiring power. That would have been a consequence, though, no doubt.
Did he think he could actually beat Mundus? Yes, his line says that.

Also, I said overconfidence AND pride. While they're not the same thing, they are strictly linked. The first can very well derive from the latter. Gotta admit that I'm speaking for experience.

Vergil didn't want to return to the human world because there really isn't any power there. He could only find it in the demon world. It has nothing to do with "True Pride."

That's your assumption. The cutscene says otherwise.

This is Vergil being foolish, shameful, and cowardly up until the very end, when Mundus stopped him -- either by offering Vergil power or just plain wiping his memory before Vergil could even get close to him.

Foolish? Yeah.

Shameful? Nah.

Coward? LOL no. A coward does't charge at the Prince of Darkness while in a weakened state.

Personally, I think if it ever occured to Vergil during his final battle with Mundus that he would lose, he would most likely just run away again like he did with Dante.

Except he didn't run away with Dante. The battle was already over when he fell, and he decided to remain trapped in the Netherworld out of pride, cause he didn't want to be saved by Dante.
 

Demi-fiend

Metempsychosis
Supporter 2014
fox... he ran from Dante.

You can deny it all you want, but he ran. He could have fought until he died in battle, but he didn't.

There's no power in the human world. Which is why Vergil went to temen-ni-gru after going to fortuna island. He probably couldn't find enough power to satisfy him in the human world, so he went to the demon world afterwards.

So... open-mouthed expression means you're "expecting to lose" but doesn't mean "surprised." I don't believe that.

As I said before, Vergil thought he could charge towards the Prince of Darkness because he thought Mundus was an easy target. Vergil was most likely at full power after having recovered from the blood he drank in the lake.

You can even see that he was coughing it out of his mouth. He was most likely just waking up and recharged.

Like I said before, if Vergil had even gotten close to Mundus and then realized that he would fall, he would run away like he did with Dante.

I don't care how you look at it -- if he ran from Dante, he would definitely run from Mundus instead of facing true death.

There's a clear difference between pride and arrogance. DMC2 Dante calmly riding on a motorcycle into hell is true pride.

Vergil screaming while running towards Mundus (like a fake samurai) is 100 percent pure arrogance.

That's the difference between the two. Learn from it.
 
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Foxtrot94

Elite Hunter
Premium
@Vergilius I'm sorry but I think you're wrong. Vergil has only been depicted actually "running away" from Dante in DMC1 and DmC.

Anyway, this discussion is dragging too long and I can already feel LOD's threatening gaze upon us... can you feel it? It's like a goosebump running all up your back... I suggest to just agree to disagree here.

But I think on one thing we can agree: Capcom should really go and explain what exactly happened with Vergil and Mundus between DMC3 and DMC1, besides just saying "Oh he got defeated and brainwashed"... besides, it would be a good reason to make a game/spinoff featuring Vergil having both Dante-style moves (cause you know, Nelo Angelo has a big sword) and Vergil-like moves, don't you think? And thus having those moves being canon.

Should we mail Capcom this (as if they would listen anyway LOL)?
 

Demi-fiend

Metempsychosis
Supporter 2014
Ok, as long as you think I'm wrong and not say that I'm certainly wrong, then feel free to think however you like. It's your opinion.

We'll just agree to disagree, like you said.

Yes, we should mail this to Capcom.

And if they don't listen, we'll just steal their software. XD

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Edit: Yes, I can feel the "Modstare" as well. hahahaha....

Also, yeah, I agree that your idea would make an excellent standalone Vergil game. Best idea I've heard all day, really.
 

Foxtrot94

Elite Hunter
Premium
Ok, as long as you think I'm wrong and not say that I'm certainly wrong, then feel free to think however you like. It's your opinion.

Same applies to you. We're both basing ourselves on the cutscenes and dialogues, but obviously all that goes through our personal perception filters.

Even though you also made a lot of assumptions on the whole Vergil vs Mundus thing, AND THAT'S WHY I SAY FILL THAT DARK SPOT WITH LIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT, CAPCOM!
But I'm afraid if they ever do it, it will be through a manga or novel of some sort, and that it will fall into the oblivion of non canon material. That's why I say, make a spinoff game about it!

Now of course they're gonna come up with "DMC1 Special Edition, featuring the not-so-clearly-told story of how Vergil fought Mundus and became that guy whose name we mispelled so badly! Don't miss it!"

Seriously though, doesn't that seem a move Capcom would make? :facepalm: goddamn, I gave them the idea.
 

Demi-fiend

Metempsychosis
Supporter 2014
Seriously though, doesn't that seem a move Capcom would make? :facepalm: goddamn, I gave them the idea.
Thanks a lot. I'll send the fans your favorite restaurant's address so that there's no more "demonic" pizza LOL.

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And yeah, you're right. It's just my own opinion.
 

ef9dante_oSsshea

Well-known Member
Premium
Xen-Omni 2020
I don't think vergil would ever run away it is more like he accepts he can't win and so he in turn tries to stop dante being trapped in the demon world as he knew dante didn't belong there, he acknowledges dante as the better of them and wants to live where his father did before him , well that is what I took from it
 

Foxtrot94

Elite Hunter
Premium
I don't think vergil would ever run away it is more like he accepts he can't win and so he in turn tries to stop dante being trapped in the demon world as he knew dante didn't belong there, he acknowledges dante as the better of them and wants to live where his father did before him , well that is what I took from it

Dude, enough of that before the mods obliterates us and this thread LOL

Look what happend to Portrait of a Warrior :'(
 

Demi-fiend

Metempsychosis
Supporter 2014
I don't think vergil would ever run away it is more like he accepts he can't win
Alright dude, but we're really not debating this anymore. Like foxtrot said, it's only our opinions.

Go get some pizza and beer (and ask fox to deliver it to you haha).
 

ef9dante_oSsshea

Well-known Member
Premium
Xen-Omni 2020
Lod won't shut down a fair and valid debate from both sides man, there is no insulting or name calling going on so I don't see anything wrong with continuing , it makes for an interesting read in fact.
 
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