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DMC3 remake idea

V's patron

be loyal to what matters
If there was to be a remake for DMC3, i think reworking the story to fit in the first light novel might be a good way to go.

the novel was Dante's backstory before DMC3 retconned it so bringing it back as what really happened the year before DMC3 would be an interesting take for a remake.

It feels too fanservicey and too much work to happen but it would be interesting to see.

Anyone else feel similarly?
 

Demi-fiend

Metempsychosis
Supporter 2014
Sorry... but not me.

As I've said before, my mega-fanfiction idea would be to basically connect DmC to DMC3 by having the DmC bros lose their Angelic sides and become half-human instead.

If I went with your idea, I would probably have to change my headcanon.
 

Morgan

Well-known Member
Premium
Xen-Ace 2021
They would have to re-do DMC3 and take Vergil out of it, because it wouldn't fit with the novel as-is. Vergil is at least understood to have committed his acts in DMC3 out of a need to make up for his weakness as a child, and the Jackpot moment with Dante as well as his descent into Hell showed that he (on some level) recognized the bond they used to have. At most, he's amoral, in which his actions serve himself first and other people second, and he cares little for whether they register as "good" or "evil" on a grand scale.

Gilver, though, is pure evil. He caused Grue's death, his plan forced Dante to mercy kill Jessica, and then he killed Nell just to trigger Dante's memory of Eva being killed in a similar way. He turned all of the patrons in Bobby's Cellar into demons, and even slaughtered the rival gang that put a bounty on Dante's head just because, not to mention everyone else in the town that wasn't Enzo was victim to his plan. Then the fight between him and Dante involved him torturing Dante with Nell's shotgun by shooting each of his limbs until they were useless. He didn't do it to prove "Might controls everything, and without strength you cannot protect anything" or something even half as cryptic. He was making Dante pay for the crime of breathing air. Gilver himself couldn't be Vergil. If Gilver and Vergil met, they'd probably try to kill each other, and Gilver would be particularly sadistic about it.

So redoing DMC3 to be "a year after the light novel" would require never having the Jackpot shot moment or Vergil's presence at all. That's because Dante would never in a million years crack party jokes at, team up with, give a "We are the Sons of Sparda" speech to, or cry about the presumed death of the same guy that killed everyone he knew. Like, if Vergil were at the tower and a year before that, he'd done what he did to Dante in that novel, Dante would have to go over there and pull a Sub-Zero spine ripping fatality on him. "I just don't like you, that's all" wouldn't cover how much hate Vergil would have earned himself for all of that.
 

RadiantWolf

Conlige suspectos semper habitos.
My dream remake is Devil May Cry 1 with more polish but the same ambience and story beats. Ideally with a script written by an English speaker.

By 3 the series had gained some coherency at least. I just recently replayed 3 and I think it is a game that stands on its own just fine as is. It doesn't need a remake, but if someone DID redo it with modern graphics and the ability to stance dance I'd play the heckies out of that.

Now OVAs based on the novels..... Oh, yes, please.
 

Lain

Earthbound Immortal
Premium
I pretty much agree with Morgan on this one, but I would like to add that if they didn't take the novel into consideration the first time they made DMC3, then I doubt they'd bother with it for this hypothetical remake.

It's a shame really, I liked the novel and having it be canon would've added some great depth to Dante's backstory.
 

RadiantWolf

Conlige suspectos semper habitos.
I wonder, if they brought the books back into the canon, if they could find way of making Gilver some sort of golem like Trish is. A demon with the face of Dante's brother sent out by the Demon World to sniff out a son of Sparda.

It'd be a bit awkward but as is Gilver is currently the MAJOR detail that places the novels (at least the first one) completely outside continuity.

If they did that then a remake of DMC 3 could at the very least reference Dante being an ex mercenary.
 

Morgan

Well-known Member
Premium
Xen-Ace 2021
I wonder, if they brought the books back into the canon, if they could find way of making Gilver some sort of golem like Trish is. A demon with the face of Dante's brother sent out by the Demon World to sniff out a son of Sparda.
I'm gonna rip off of my own idea and make a suggestion that Gilver be Nightmare, the boss from the first DMC game. That two weapons exist modelled after it suggests that a series of them isn't out of the ordinary, and the Enemy File for the boss says "Whether it has a consciousness is unknown". In this case, it used to, but reveled too much in the fear and trauma of its enemies to actually do its job efficiently. After it lost, Mundus stripped it of that consciousness to make it more machine-like, and made the miniature series.

In terms of how it impacts the story of the novel, to make more sense, Nightmare pulled off a variation of one of its existing skills; reached into Dante's subconscious and picked out the trauma related to Vergil. It then reflected that trauma by taking on his form, or an approximation of it, since Vergil was last seen aged 8 or so. I'd say it "shapeshifted" using the bones seen in its sludge to look "close enough" to Dante. The bandages covered up any imperfections. Then the armor Gilver wore in the last fight with Dante was the Nightmare shell instead of Nelo Angelo armor after it absorbed some of Dante's power to get stronger and "activate its own Devil Trigger".

Then Dante pulled off a save, blasted the Nightmare's cores and KOed it, it slunk back to the Underworld, and Mundus erased its personality to make it more of a machine and less prone to being sidetracked by its own feelings. Still, Mundus would see the use in creating a demon that played off of Dante's "dead family" issues so it made Trish. Personally I'd go with an alteration to DMC1 and make Trish actually pass herself off as Eva from the beginning to earn Dante's trust that way before betraying him, but that's just me.
 

berto

I Saw the Devil
Moderator
If there was a DMC3 remake all I'd want is for the characters to look like this, literally:
dante-devil-may-cry.jpg

VERGIL+DEVIL+MAY+CRY.jpg

9077581297_dca7538321.jpg
 

Morgan

Well-known Member
Premium
Xen-Ace 2021
The manga doesn't explain that animosity either. One would think that seeing your presumed-dead brother finally alive again would get some level of surprise and relief? Instead they still hated each other like a high school clique, Dante automatically knew Vergil was "sided with the same guys that killed Mom" and threatened to put him back into a grave. Then the game realized they were supposed to give a crap about each other so Dante shed a tear over the same guy he casually threatened to murder a year before. But the last time they ever acted remotely nice before than was when they were 8. then they met again a decade later and just knew they were enemies.
 

Foxtrot94

Elite Hunter
Premium
So, you're talking a full on remake, right?

If so, I imagine they would have to re-do the motion capture for the cutscenes, which, unless Shimomura is involved again, would worry me. One of the highlights of DMC3 was the direction of its cutscenes.

If DMC3 is remade, it should have flashbacks that explain the animosity between Dante and Vergil.

Would be very nice indeed, but ultimately, I don't think it's strictly necessary. I don't think it's all that relevant to the overall story. The point was to show how Dante, by witnessing the **** going on between Lady and Arkham, gets to have some sense of duty and responsibility slapped into him as motivations, coming from the simple fun chasing, and desire to accept the challenge Vergil threw at him of the game's beginning. Family was definitely a theme too, but more on Lady's side, serving as a means to support the above mentioned point, making Dante realize that since Vergil was his family, it was his responsibility to stop him.

I think that, instead of throwing flashbacks of something not all THAT important to the main story in there, it'd be better to develop a side campaign (it's Capcom, you know they wouldn't hesitate to make DLCs and bundle it in for this hypothetical remake) a la Vergil's Downfall and treat the origin of Dante and Vergil's animosity as its main plot.
Or, a less expensive way to go I guess would be for those flashbacks to be unlockables you get to see in the Gallery, maybe by satisfying certain requirements while you play the game. You know what I mean, kinda like hidden bosses in fighting games, just to add some gameplay value to it.
 

Viper

Well-known Member
Premium
I'm sorry, but what is the point of remaking a perfectly fine game, that even had a special edition as a sort of a remake, for a few extra scenes and slightly more polished graphics?
Considering they ignored the first novel when making DMC3 manga, I doubt it would actually get looked at now, except for maybe some random references, like in the anime. Said manga is still circulating the internet, so if there is still someone that gets around to playing DMC3 for first time and actually wants to know more than what game gives them, it's not that hard to point them to it.
I'd rather resources are invested in new games, or at least games that would actually benefit a lot from the remake, like DMC2.
 

Foxtrot94

Elite Hunter
Premium
@Viper
Yeah I've always supported the idea of not remaking any other game and just focus on making a new one. But the thread was made for an hypothetical scenario, so...
 

berto

I Saw the Devil
Moderator
I'm sorry, but what is the point of remaking a perfectly fine game, that even had a special edition as a sort of a remake, for a few extra scenes and slightly more polished graphics?
Graphically remade and just that would be great but at the same time wouldn't you like the ability to switch styles or adding a few stages? A straight up graphic upgrade wouldn't really do much for anyone but us. Besides, if any game gets the game remake it will be a RE game, not DMC.
 

Viper

Well-known Member
Premium
Graphically remade and just that would be great but at the same time wouldn't you like the ability to switch styles or adding a few stages? A straight up graphic upgrade wouldn't really do much for anyone but us. Besides, if any game gets the game remake it will be a RE game, not DMC.
I said once I'd like style switcher, but DMC4 has it, and I forget to use it 99% of the time. My brain is not wired to keep track of so many buttons mid-battle.
Adding few more stages wouldn't mean much when it's the same game, same plot, same objectives. So why not make a DMC5 and include stages inspired by DMC3 in Bloody Palace as a way of actually fighting through a building?
 

V's patron

be loyal to what matters
@Viper I'm not advocating a remake instead of a brand new game, im just saying if we had to get a remake a reworked story/gameplay would be pretty cool.

Granted my idea might be too ambitious to be likely but its worth a shot.

@Blackquill's comment on the novel adding depth to Dante's backstory is why i thought about doing this. The novel does give more concrete info on Dante's life than the anime/manga so its a shame to waste it.

@Foxtrot94 and @tehrugger talked about other options they could do. I liked Fox's thoughts on doing a Vergil's Downfall esque mode covering what actually happened before DMC3.

@RadiantWolf talked about doing an OVA instead which is another option. You could always have Dante encounter elements of the novel in another story (as an episode or another game etc).

@Morgan talked about how to reconcile Vergil's differing portrayals and i liked the idea he and @RadiantWolf had about using Gilver as another golem or an early version of Nightmare.

I wanted Trish to be who Lady was talking to in the opening/closing narrations.

@LordOfDarkness's suggestions are pretty cool. I'd suggest giving Dante a snazzy red suit as an optional mercernary outfit would be cool to see.
 

WolfOD64

That Guy Who Hates Fox McCloud
Really, the best thing DMC3 would benefit from in terms of being remade would be its migration to the MT Framework Engine. The primary reason I utterly despise that game is purely because of how atrociously its camera, controls, and technical limitations have aged, and maybe with the same engine fluidity that DMC4 had, what with its more spacious maps, allowance for aerial combos, and a much better camera overall, the game could finally match its woefully-squandered potential. I'd even forgive the abhorrent nature of the story if the game at least played well, and really, that's the best thing a remake can do for a game: aid its efficiency as a game first and update it to current standards (which is ironic, considering how hideously out of date DMC3 was even on release, in comparison to other action games at the time).

Also, I'm going to have to profess my agreement with @Morgan and others in their notion that incorporating the novels into 3's plot wouldn't amount to a whole lot. The novels are, for better or for worse, too self-concentrated and closer to Hideki Kamiya's vision of the DMC mythos than the current games are---and trying to squeeze whatever cohesion or established aspects of them into the cancerous mess that is the modern DMC canon would be nothing short of impossible. That would mean having to give Dante actual depth and character versatility, equipping Vergil with actual and explainable motives, and filling the empty bowels of the narrative with other characters that serve more of a purpose than meaningless cameos. Basically, take everything that was good about the novels, and try to incorporate that to the barebones narrative assets of DMC3. I've always wanted a third novel, but not at the expense of having it shoehorned into the canon and tainted by any of the laughable plot threads plaguing DMC3.

I also find it quite humorous that people are saying that incorporating the novels would clash with the DMC3 manga, when the manga also clashes wildly with its source material.

My dream remake is Devil May Cry 1 with more polish but the same ambience and story beats. Ideally with a script written by an English speaker.
According to interviews, every DMC game starting with 3 had a story penned by Bingo Morihashi, which is in turn---at least according to Capcom-- "fleshed out through consultation with American film scriptwriters."

So, yes...these scripts are partially the work of English speakers, which only makes the laughable dialogue in these games all the more baffling.

Of course, with how DMC1 was localized, I don't see how the script could've turned out much worse.

Now OVAs based on the novels..... Oh, yes, please.
If they had instead reserved the entire Madhouse Production of the Devil May Cry Anime series for a straight-up adaptation of the novels instead of whatever failure at world-building they attempt with the whole slice-of-life filler plot with Patty etc., I would've loved it.

Just thinking about all that lavish production value with Yoshiaki Kawajiri's storyboarding while adapting that first voulme of the novels, maybe eventually bringing life to Beryl through animated form....

A girl can only dream. :'(
 

Morgan

Well-known Member
Premium
Xen-Ace 2021
Would be very nice indeed, but ultimately, I don't think it's strictly necessary. I don't think it's all that relevant to the overall story. The point was to show how Dante, by witnessing the **** going on between Lady and Arkham, gets to have some sense of duty and responsibility slapped into him as motivations, coming from the simple fun chasing, and desire to accept the challenge Vergil threw at him of the game's beginning. Family was definitely a theme too, but more on Lady's side, serving as a means to support the above mentioned point, making Dante realize that since Vergil was his family, it was his responsibility to stop him.
That's actually precisely why it's important and necessary.

WALL OF TEXT INCOMING.

Dante does not have a strong character arc in his own game, nor does Vergil serve as a good antagonist for that reason. We have little idea as to what Dante wanted and what/how Vergil opposed it. If anything, it's Vergil who wanted something and Dante who opposed him. Dante, because of such weak and non-existent motivation (motivation is an "invisible chatacter trait" but not THAT invisible), should have been relegated to being a side character or otherwise be pulled from the plot entirely.

"He starts off as a jerk but 'slowly' becomes less of a jerk" takes no effort-- it's the basis of any low quality romantic anime with a tsundere in it ("she acts mean to the male love interest and then stops being mean! True love!"). I put 'slowly' in quotation marks because he didn't do even that much. He just lightswitched into caring about Lady's plight after making fun of it all, and it's not like the development actually made sense. The two of them only interacted for 15 minutes and Lady was racist to him for 20 of them.

He "somehow" got a sense of responsibility to family in the middle of Lady's ranting that he was a demon and had no concept of it? He should have already had responsibility and a concept of family. Didn't he "already know" Vergil, his own brother, was sided with "the same guys that killed Mom" a year ago in the manga? How is his brother desecrating the memory of his mother not important, unless he somehow didn't care about his mom either? It doesn't help that he barely mentioned her outside of "she had an amulet".

As it stands, Lady had more invested into her personal story from what's seen. It was her father that killed her mother. (Her father who then used all the other characters as pawns with a goal in mind, making him a stronger antagonist and villain.) In comparison, Dante had something tangentially related to Sparda in there even though we had “Sparda did this, and Dante is gonna do sorta the same thing” for two other games before that. It was Lady's plot. Dante was just along for the ride because his brother was feeling inadequate or some junk. Then Lady was sidelined for his benefit and allowed him the moment to be vulnerable and explain the tragic loss he suffered that justified his belligerent attitude (not really, he STILL never mentions his mother. That speech was entirely about Sparda. We might as well assume Sparda gave birth to the boys Piccolo-style given Eva's lack of presence), giving him a powerboost by putting her task on his shoulders and giving him "more to fight for". Then they tossed her character a bone in M20 to have her shoot Arkham with the bullets she magically reloaded into her gun (wasn't she all out in M16?). But if you removed that scene right there, Dante and Vergil would've killed Arkham with their Jackpot shot and not a single thing would be off with that, because Dante always beats bosses with Jackpot shots.

She got sidelined to let this knuckle-dragger of a protagonist evolve a basic facet of characterization: his f#cking motivation. The thing he should have had from the beginning but it took him a literal 4/5ths of the game to actually let us know he had one. Somehow despite him "not giving a damn" about anything to do with the tower we were supposed to believe he gave enough of one to head TO the tower in the first place instead of blowing Vergil off and skipping town? Yeah, okay.

DMC3 was crippled by shoddy dialogue and hokey character development. This is basically the game:

[ Prologue ]
Arkham: "Are you the Son of Sparda?"
Dante: "Who told you that?"
Arkham: "Your brother."
Dante: "I could just screw him over and not show up to this obvious trap he laid out for me considering he told me his evil plan to literally raise Hell almost a year ago and tried to kill me, but WOOHOO" *goes anyway*

[ M3 ]
Lady: *arrives*
Dante: "Oh, you have heterochromia just like that bald guy, right down to the same eye colors. The cameras gave both your eyes extra focus. I'm supposed to be passing my business off as a Private Investigation service, but I'm not going to do any critical thinking or investigating here at all. I'm pretty sure I saw a picture of you a year ago so I should have some idea as to who you are, but I won't mention it."
Lady: "I should recognize your voice from that time I went into your office with a creepy girl and then hid in your bathroom, but I won't mention that either." *attempts murder*
Dante: *rocket surfs, rocket goes slow as molasses while he does jazz hands* "WOOHOO"
Lady: *leaves*

[ M6 ]
Arkham: "You would dare shoot your own kin? Your dear Papa?"
Lady: "The only family I ever had was my mother, and she's dead!"
Arkham: "But it was I who gave you your name.... MY DARLING DAUGHTER!"
Lady: "... Wait, you already called yourself my Papa so what was the point of 'revealing' I'm your daughter? It already happened. You could have just said my name."
Arkham: "..." *tosses Lady off the tower*
[ LATER ]
Dante: "What's your name?"
Lady: "I don't have one!" [a.k.a. 'the dialogue didn't reveal my name because of linguistic redundancies']
[ LATER ]
Jester: *Casually namedrops Mary's name as if everyone knew it*

[ M7 ]
Lady: *is falling with no hope of stopping*
Dante: *saves her life*
Lady: "Let me go!"
Dante: "How about no?"
Lady: *shoots*
Dante: "That's how you say 'Thanks'!?"
Lady: "You're a demon too!"
Dante: "Wait, so you shot at me with a rocket earlier tonight for no reason and shot me in the face right now, but now you figure out that I'm a demon? Did you miss the part where I went rocket surfing?"
Lady: "Kinda, yeah."
Dante: "And you were perfectly fine with trying to murder me twice before you found out I'm not exactly human?"
Lady: "Pretty much."
Dante: "I'm out of here. I got a fight to catch."

[ LATER ]
Vergil: "Why do you refuse to gain the power of our father?"
Dante: "I don't have a father. I just don't like you, that's all."
Vergil: "You have such an enormous misunderstanding of the way reproduction works that I might bust a gut laughing."
Dante: "Bro, you're not even smiling"
Vergil: "Because it WASN'T FUNNY. Anyway, that had nothing to do with--"
Dante: "I was just trying to sound cool, okay!?"
Vergil: "Okay"

[ M10 ]
Vergil: "I'm going to stab you because you couldn't kill your only daughter, and fatherly love is weak."
Arkham: "Won't it be revealed you have a son later?"
Vergil: "Yes, but he doesn't exist as a concept yet to justify my b.s. 'moral ambiguity' so that fangirls can write out my agency to make me out to be a 'poor misunderstood baby', so just roll with it. Also I'm going to give one of the only descriptors we have on Kalina Ann's character by using such a generic term as 'loving' which superficially makes her no different from every single other wife."
Arkham: "And later on I'll describe her in terms such as 'pure' and 'innocent' which are also equally generic and make her no different from a Disney Princess or a little girl."

[ LATER ]
Lady: *points to Arkham* "Did you kill him?"
Dante: "I didn't but I'll imply I did."
Lady: "I'm going to throw a tantrum now and not mention my mother outside of the context of 'my father's wife'. Any idea of who she is as an actual person is buried under her in the context of 'victim', but the only time I'll actually refer to her as my mother is in front of Arkham, who really would not give a crap about the relationship considering he murdered her. I won't even tell you her name! You'll just get it from the rocket launcher and learn it through osmosis, or something."
Dante: "I know we have something in common due to murdered mothers, but I'll just LOL and go 'dysfunctional family' even though I have a purpose practically written for me in terms of backstory and seeking revenge for my mother's murder!"
Lady: "YOU'RE A DEMON, YOU UNDERSTAND NOTHING ABOUT FAMILY, YOU MONSTER"
Dante: "Yup, I'm totally developing as a character. Let me not mention my mother and the impact her existence made in my life, to make you understand that I'm not just a demon."

[ LATER ]
Lady: "You killed my mother!"
Arkham: "The Devil Made Me Do It"
Lady: "Oh, then that's perfectly okay."
Arkham: "Please go after Vergil, he did all this to get Sparda's power."
Lady: "I don't even know who Vergil is, and I don't know Dante's name yet, but I'll instinctively know who to attack and accuse of possessing you. I'm also going to ignore that the 'myth' about Sparda is real and that good demons do exist, because I'm a racist and still think all demons are evil even though you're a human who murdered his wife and Sparda being the exception to this rule is the reason why we're living and breathing today."
Arkham: "Atta girl."

[ M16 ]
Lady: "This has nothing to do with you being a demon and me being a human! I'm going after Arkham because JUSTICE!"
Dante: "Yeah actually this has a lot to do with genetics, you're narrating the plot and the story isn't even about you, it's focused on me the whole time."
Lady: "You have a point."
Dante: "I can feel myself suddenly growing a conscience so let me acknowledge that your quest is personal.... aaaaaaand let me point my guns at you to tell you to stop because my story is more important."

[ LATER ]
Dante: "I beat you until you can't see straight, so lemme get in your personal space and lean in for what looks like a kiss."
Lady: *REJECTS*
Dante: "Okay maybe not."
Lady: "I ran out of bullets, I have no more grenades, but you beat me, so have the only other weapon in my possession that doesn't need reloading. I'll be completely unarmed in this tower full of demons!"
Dante: "Oh, sweet, a placeholder for an actual Devil Arm! I'll never mention this again or use it in a cutscene ever."
Lady: "Please do my job for me and 'free' my father."
Dante: "No I won't"
Lady: "Nah you won't."

[ M19 ]
Vergil: "I know I tried to murder you a bunch of times and could give two sh!ts less what this evil guy did as long as he helped me, which makes me guilty by association, but let's be brothers one more time!"
Dante: "Yeah, let's do this!"
[ One Jackpot Shot later ]
Vergil: "I'm gonna try and murder you again"
Dante: "Same"

[ LATER ]
Vergil: "I need more power!"
Dante: "Why?"
Vergil: ".... Uhhhhh... I just... need it. To become like Father."
Dante: "Yeah but you opened Hell right in the middle of town, displaced a bunch of humans from their homes if not outright killed them with the tower's ascension. That bald guy killed people too, so you're not that different from him in terms of actions-- didn't you stab him because he wasn't evil enough? That's the exact opposite of what Dad would do, and pretty damning in terms of morality."
Vergil: "B-b-but... tragic backstory..."
Dante: "We had the same event happen to us! I saw Mom murdered right in front of my eyes, and I didn't turn out like this! That's not an excuse!"
Vergil: "B-b-but... Nero--"
Nero: "Look, I don't even exist yet as a concept for you to justify this power trip and the only excuse given for it is in an artbook that only talks about your mother's death, not that I was already born, so don't play."

[ LATER ]
Vergil: "I know I lost, but let me cement my failure by refusing to go with you to the Human World. I won't attempt in any way to redeem myself, I'll just toss myself into Hell where everyone hates me because I'm my father's son. The only reason I'm doing this is because this place was his home"
Dante: "Did you miss the part where Dad literally shut the Hell up and stayed on Earth for 2000 years?"
Vergil: "LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOOOOUUUUUU" *falling off a cliff*
Dante: "I have a style that can stop time, a guitar that shoots bats, a tri-part nunchaku that I used to catch a motorcycle out of the air, and a Devil Trigger that allows me to fly, but I'm gonna physically reach out for you anyway"
Vergil: "NOPE"
Dante: "Okay"

[ Epilogue ]
Dante: "Let me shed a tear for the brother I lost even though I was perfectly okay with murdering him and told him that to his face."
Lady: "Even a Devil May Cry when he loses a loved one, don't you think?"
Dante: "I appreciate the title drop, and I'm not going to correct you on the fact that I'm genetically half-human and that my upbringing in the Human World probably has a say in how I express my emotions, but I just wanna let you know I'm gonna change the shop name to Devil Never Cry later on."
Lady: "No you won't"
Dante: "Nah I won't."

Aside from my attempt at humor, was there a decent reason the brothers were at each other's throats? The manga has some level of backstory, so let's check. Is it because...

1. They each remind the other of their dad? How? Their personalities are such a far cry from any concept of Sparda that that'd only make sense if Sparda himself had some kind of Dissociative Identity Disorder. The type of man Eva described him as fits neither Dante's nor Vergil's characters at that point, and that's not even getting to the fact that neither of them should even know him well enough to determine which qualities they reflect.

2. Vergil thought Dante was the "more loved"/"favorite" child from Eva's treatment of him? How? We know next to nothing about how Eva raised them but she gave them equal gifts and wished them both a happy birthday, mentioning Vergil first. Their only inequality would be in their weapons. DMC4 shows us that Yamato is the second most OP sword in the series, capable of creating and destroying a Hell Gate with a single swing. Someone trusted him enough to have it, while Dante had Rebellion described as "a manifestation of his own power" but otherwise containing no special properties and paling in comparison to the Sparda sword at full power. Dante didn't have Rebellion with him when the family was attacked and couldn't defend himself. Vergil had the Yamato and did defend himself, plus got more power in the form of his Devil Trigger. If anything, he was more favored. Dante just had luck going for him back then, plus Eva being his shield. ... So I guess this means that Dante should've been the one seeking power because he didn't have it in any form when he was younger, whereas Vergil should've been content with his own skills since he acquired them at age 8. Instead the plot isn't like that, because reasons.

DMC3 tried selling the "conflict between brothers", whatever that was, from Lady narrating about it, to Dante examining the display in the Bullseye Bar about those two bulls with their "horns locked in eternal struggle". What eternal struggle, though? The one that only lasted one or two nights before it was resolved cleanly with Vergil staying in Hell and getting himself killed? The one where both parties hadn't seen each other for "nearly a year" when they could have easily been written as having fought each other repeatedly throughout that year, culminating in the Tower being raised? They only saw each other a year ago for one night or two before then, and the last time before that was a decade ago. After Vergil falls into Hell, Dante wouldn't see him until DMC1 which would be almost a decade afterward.

Thats what the game thinks is "eternal"? Batman vs. Joker is "eternal". This was just a weekend, not even a whole week in total (maybe a week and a half total, counting DMC1), and it would've been resolved much faster if Dante weren't suffering from Cool Guy Syndrome or if Vergil swallowed his pride and explained his motivations instead of sounding insane.

I actually have this pet idea, that Vergil and Lady should have traded goals. Lady's animosity wouldn't be to the level of "Kill them all!" because that makes no sense-- her quest for revenge would be strictly personal and not her taking her anger out on an entire race. Maybe even have her focus be on "undoing what Arkham did" on his terms, gaining dark power in order to defeat him herself, then trading his soul to bring her mother back to life. Her arc would involve her realizing that she'd become too much like her father with that action and opt instead to just kill Arkham and let her mother rest in peace instead of potentially twisting her soul with dark magic or something. (Judging from Arkham's scar, the rituals have drawbacks).

But Vergil? The plot around him would write itself. The details about how he hates "cancerous human emotions" and that weird blurb in the manga about how he considered his own father "Evil" (wtf??) would be explained because Sparda showed compassion to his enemies. Considering they're all demons out for his blood due to his traitor status, he shouldn't have let them live, but instead he held "no ill will" towards them as the legend says. What reason did Sparda have for not killing Mundus? We don't know, but him being allowed to nurse that grudge for 2000 years is the reason Eva died. Vergil's whole purpose would then be "I'll surpass my father and do what he couldn't, AND KILL EVERY LAST DEMON", humans in the crossfire be damned. It's like Loki trying to lay waste to Jotunheim using the Bifrost and letting Asgard come to harm repeatedly in order to get the glory after killing the Frost Giants. It makes sense with his character. Dante and Vergil could even have the "You can't kill an entire race!" "Why not?" exchange, because facilitating genocide is not the normal, well-reasoned answer to one person dying, and the resentment would run deep enough that the solution wouldn't be "beat the character enough times and hope they stop being so racist" (see: Lady). Vergil would realize his actions wouldn't make him like his father and learn from that.

Alternate motivation 1: Rework DMC3 so that Rebellion doesn't exist, and Dante has Force Edge. Vergil has Yamato. He needs the FE and Amulet, and has to open the Demon World because of the Sparda sword's "fickleness", see: DMC1. It only allowed Dante to use its power while in the Underworld. Just say Vergil wants to achieve the same thing. Vergil calls Dante out on having Sparda's true power in his fingers and squandering it by not seeking the rest of it. Instead of Dante nonsensically disowning his dad in M7, Vergil could ask the same question about refusal to gain power, Dante's answer would be "Because that power didn't save Mom"/"it wouldn't bring Mom back," and then Vergil would get angry because that struck a nerve. Bam, instant characterization of Vergil as the guy who thinks attaining some level of godhood would retroactively cure his ills when it'd only provide a hollow comfort, and Dante would actually have mentioned the fact that he has family other than the guy he apparently didn't like.

Alternate motivation 2? Vergil resents Dante and holds him responsible for Eva dying. We've read the manga. Vergil had a weapon to defend himself with and attained a Devil Trigger. Dante did not. His life came at the cost of Eva's. In Vergil's POV, Dante woulld be to blame. If he'd been stronger, Eva could focus on saving herself instead of being his shield. Or Dante could have saved her. Instead he "cowardly" hid away, and "cowardly" blamed demons for killing her when he (through inaction) killed her. Does it make total sense to blame an eight year old child for the death or an adult? No. But would an unhinged character like Vergil come to that conclusion? Yes. If we believe that him blaming his own weakness for Eva's death is motivation enough to open up Hell, it's not that far off for his character to be written to hate Dante instead since he was literally right there when his mother was murdered.
 
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Foxtrot94

Elite Hunter
Premium
Dante does not have a strong character arc in his own game, nor does Vergil serve as a good antagonist for that reason. We have little idea as to what Dante wanted and what/how Vergil opposed it. If anything, it's Vergil who wanted something and Dante who opposed him. Dante, because of such weak and non-existent motivation (motivation is an "invisible chatacter trait" but not THAT invisible), should have been relegated to being a side character or otherwise be pulled from the plot entirely.

"He starts off as a jerk but 'slowly' becomes less of a jerk" takes no effort-- it's the basis of any low quality romantic anime with a tsundere in it ("she acts mean to the male love interest and then stops being mean! True love!"). I put 'slowly' in quotation marks because he didn't do even that much. He just lightswitched into caring about Lady's plight after making fun of it all, and it's not like the development actually made sense. The two of them only interacted for 15 minutes and Lady was racist to him for 20 of them.

He "somehow" got a sense of responsibility to family in the middle of Lady's ranting that he was a demon and had no concept of it? He should have already had responsibility and a concept of family. Didn't he "already know" Vergil, his own brother, was sided with "the same guys that killed Mom" a year ago in the manga? How is his brother desecrating the memory of his mother not important, unless he somehow didn't care about his mom either? It doesn't help that he barely mentioned her outside of "she had an amulet".

As it stands, Lady had more invested into her personal story from what's seen. It was her father that killed her mother. (Her father who then used all the other characters as pawns with a goal in mind, making him a stronger antagonist and villain.) In comparison, Dante had something tangentially related to Sparda in there even though we had “Sparda did this, and Dante is gonna do sorta the same thing” for two other games before that. It was Lady's plot. Dante was just along for the ride because his brother was feeling inadequate or some junk. Then Lady was sidelined for his benefit and allowed him the moment to be vulnerable and explain the tragic loss he suffered that justified his belligerent attitude (not really, he STILL never mentions his mother. That speech was entirely about Sparda. We might as well assume Sparda gave birth to the boys Piccolo-style given Eva's lack of presence), giving him a powerboost by putting her task on his shoulders and giving him "more to fight for". Then they tossed her character a bone in M20 to have her shoot Arkham with the bullets she magically reloaded into her gun (wasn't she all out in M16?). But if you removed that scene right there, Dante and Vergil would've killed Arkham with their Jackpot shot and not a single thing would be off with that, because Dante always beats bosses with Jackpot shots.

She got sidelined to let this knuckle-dragger of a protagonist evolve a basic facet of characterization: his f#cking motivation. The thing he should have had from the beginning but it took him a literal 4/5ths of the game to actually let us know he had one. Somehow despite him "not giving a damn" about anything to do with the tower we were supposed to believe he gave enough of one to head TO the tower in the first place instead of blowing Vergil off and skipping town? Yeah, okay.

Yeah, I've responded to these points countless times in the past, I really ain't in the mood of repeating myself another one. I disagree with you and I stand by what I said. I don't think the origin of the rivalry ain't that relevant, and it's not what the story's about, even though it would give the characters some more depth.

As for the rest of your post, I haven't read the manga so I can't comment on it. Maybe I should get around to read it but it's in black and white as far as I can gather and as petty as it may sound to some, I can't stand anything that is in black and white.
 

Viper

Well-known Member
Premium
@Viper I'm not advocating a remake instead of a brand new game, im just saying if we had to get a remake a reworked story/gameplay would be pretty cool.

Granted my idea might be too ambitious to be likely but its worth a shot.
You are not advocating, but you are talking about it, at which I couldn't wrap my head around the fact why would anyone want to see a remake of a perfectly fine game that is still the most appreciated in the series and the genre. An expansion of the story can just as easily be done in a new game, which can be set in any part of the timeline, events either played out or just referenced.
Of course, given previous record one should always keep their expectations low, but maybe they do score a decent writer and don't butt into his or her job too much.
 
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