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[Official] Nero is Vergil' son

Morgan

Well-known Member
Premium
Xen-Ace 2021
More so on recent point as to whom the DT spirit belongs to, I would again lean on Nero: Vergil doesn't seem likely volunteer to be a puppet for someone elses gain ^_^.

Here's my suggestion. It's Yamato.

For one, a majority of Devil Arms are Devils before they're Arms. Secondly, a Devil Arm that holds a devil's soul is 100% of the time named directly after the devil it came from. Yamato has had its name and existed since Sparda's time, and Agnus calls it an "extremely powerful Devil's Arm", as in "an Arm that belongs to a Devil", grammatically speaking. The fighting style exclusive to this Arm is described as that of a "warrior fallen from grace" and it has the “will and the power to divide and wipe out the darkness”, and has the ability to destroy or form Hellgates. It'd be pretty screwy if this super powerful Arm was just an empty sword with no soul in it whatsoever. How's it so powerful, then?

Chances are if Vergil had a DA, he wouldn't want to share it with something that has its own name. His own Arm would be named "Vergil" like Sparda's is named Sparda, and it'd have whatever powers he had. But he doesn't have one, and the Yamato can't be him either, because if he could form and destroy Hellgates at will, DMC3 wouldn't have happened.

Surprisingly, that proof is with the DMC4SE. Vergil casts a demonic shadow for a form he's never shown having at all in 3, even though the Fortuna visit is before 3, but the shadow resembles Nero's DT form, and Nero can't pre-natally project himself-- or at least, I sure as hell hope not. Vergil's DT in 3 lacks most of the traits of the shadow he's projecting. It even has a different number of fingers on its left hand, where Vergil has all his left fingers in 3DT but with an extra protrusion to hold his sword that has "two/three claws".

Throughout DMC3, Dante’s and Vergil’s Trigger forms differ between each other depending on which weapon is equipped at any given point. They may or may not have wings, their “hair” is pointed or curved, they could or couldn't have gauntlets, spikes, etc. This continues into DMC1, which is still canon (hopefully), so unless they retcon the way Devil Triggers worked in the first game, then even at the age of 28 or so, when Dante's reached physical maturity, his own Devil Trigger form changes depending on the weapon he has. Alastor looks vastly different from Ifrit, and when Dante equips the Sparda, he looks like his father. This is the only time he actually looks like his dad in DT form, because their forms usually look as different as night and day unless we compare his DDT in 2 with Sparda's form or the Sparda DT in 1. So basically, it takes a good long while post-achievement of maturity for a son's DT to look like a variation of his father's.

So theory is, depending on how strong the spirit inside the Devil Arm is, or depending on how much power the Devil Arm wants to give to its wielder (or how much the wielder needs from the Arm), the wielder could adopt their form and become them, or have his "natural" form with additions from them. The Force Edge even turned Arkham into Sparda. And he's not even related to the Spardas, so at least one of these things I said is true for his situation.

DMC4 proper is where things get screwy, with the game's insistence that “The Angelos are made from fragments of [Nelo's] Armor”, when neither the Alto nor the Bianco actually look like Nelo. Like. Not even close. Even the Savior (supposedly a “statue of Sparda”) has more in common with the DMC4 Angelos (both common enemies and Angelos Credo and Agnus) than Nelo does, and the Savior was constructed from "two millenia of demonic energy". They certainly wouldn't get the two millenia from Vergil. If anything were made directly from Vergil's/Nelo Angelo's corpse/armor, it would have Vergil's features on them, not have more in common with each other than they do him, outside of the one shadow.

Breaking this down:
Nero's Perfect DT form and DT Specter have the same shoulder protrusions as Vergil's Shadow, but Vergil's actual DT in 3 does not have either.
Nero's "horns" in his Perfect DT and Specter sprout from the back of his head. The Savior's does, the Biancos and Altos do, Vergil's does not, and Nelo's come from the front of his head and project further out from his face.
Nero's PDT and Specter have a partially obscured face like Credo and Agnus, where Nelo Angelo's face is "exposed" and delineates human features, and Vergil's DT face is only obscured by his "coat collar".
Nero's PDT and Specter have "shoulder ridges" like Vergil’s Shadow and the Savior, and the Angelo have ridged surfaces. While Vergil's DT does also have ridges, it doesn't interrupt his silhouette in any way and may as well be smooth, even though he visually looks incredibly scaly from head to toe.
Nero's PDT and Specter has wings like all Angelos except Nelo.
The only thing Nero's PDT and Specter, and Vergil's shadow and DT have in common is the left arm sheath+claw combo. But tellingly, both wielders are around the same physical age when they display that trait. From what we see in DMCs 1, 2, and 3, and even 4, it's incredibly rare that father and son share physical features in their DT outside of extenuating circumstances such as actually wielding the sword with their soul in it or-- in Dante's case-- being almost 50 years old and near-death. That arm-sheath can be considered Yamato-exclusive.

Another difference is that Vergil's Yamato DT keeps his toes intact, and Vergil is a half-demon. If Nero's DT were to resemble Vergil's because of a father and son connection, Nero wouldn't (eventually) be missing his toes in that form. He's more human than devil and he probably was born with all his toes. Such drastic change in physical features comes from a strong demonic presence in the Devil Arm. Again, we can refer to DMC1. Dante's Alastor DT has wings, spiked back hair, and IIRC he even gains a third eye as well as what looks like a dragon's head on his shoulder. Dante's Ifrit DT has none of that and he has a giant single eye in his face. I doubt Dante has ever been a cyclops even once in his natural life.

Back to the point: Vergil and Nelo don't have resemblance to the Angelos, the Savior, or Nero's DT. Being that it was Yamato and not Vergil that we can actually see was experimented on to form the Angelo armors, and seeing that no one ever says who that voice belonged to that echoed in Nero’s head, here's the radical idea I'm sideways suggesting:

Yamato exists as its own being with its own values, and those values can be resonated with to access its power. Again, no one says who that voice belonged to that echoed in Nero's head. The man that Nero is described as seeing in his dying vision before he DTs is.... not actually described as Vergil. Really. Go back and read that sh!t. CaT herself says it's "obviously Vergil", but that's her opinion, not actual fact within the novel. The only thing described of the "man" is that his glare is "cold" with a touch of gentleness/kindness, and that this being says he desires "more power" when he's asked. Nero's also described as never having met the man, but with how much Nero and Vergil are supposed to resemble each other, and Vergil being Dante's effing twin, Nero should have been able to note that this man "looked like Dante" or "looked like him (Nero)", or at least had a single mention of white hair or a blue coat.

The unnamed figure also spoke to Nero in his mind/vision/dreamscape/what have you. Alastor and Ifrit have done the same to Dante. Alastor, Ifrit, and most other Devil Arms (especially Sparda) are seen to grant their form and power to those most worthy of it after judging them in some way. Nero resonated with this figure in the most passive way ever. "What does your soul want?" "I dunno, what's yours saying?" "I want more power". "Great, I'll have what you're having". It's different than Al's and Ifrit's "Try to kill the wielder", or Sparda's "has to be feeling righteous rage" requirement (or in 3, "swing my sword a bunch of times"), but it counts as resonance, I suppose. I'd even say that Nero resonated with the Yamato more than even Vergil did. Maybe Vergil was stubborn. Point is, Nero's PDT and Specter have a ‘combination’ of the parts the fragmented Yamato lent to different enemies, whereas the Yamato only gave Vergil a single thing in common with Nero. Yamato would've probably resonated with Nero regardless of blood relation. Blood does not guarantee an identical Devil Trigger form to another, not even on identical twins (see: Dante and Vergil). Lack of blood doesn't stop someone from looking like the spitting image of the Devil in the Arm (see: Arkham).

DMC5 might change all that, but until then, this is what makes the most sense to me. And they'd have to do a hell of a job explaining how "Vergil" in Nero's vision is "cold, but gentle" when he never met the guy, and the man actually smiles before granting Nero his power, whereas "V" in 5 just slices off Nero's arm. If Vergil and V are (probably) the same person and Vergil was also inside Yamato, those actions are too different. It's not like Vergil was in a better state in 4 than he is in 5: the DA he's supposedly inhabiting was broken in half. He should've been even meaner in Nero's vision than he was actually described.

This whole theory may look convoluted judging by the sheer number of paragraphs it took me to explain the reasoning, compare and contrast and all, but ultimately it leads to a straightforward answer as to what could be going on in DMCV.

"V" wants the Yamato because it's OP as f#ck. "V" cuts off Nero's arm because the power to open and close Hellgates is something he wants to actually do or he wants to have it simply to have it. "V" wants the Yamato because he's upset on some level that it granted Nero more of itself than it would let him have, and the implication that he's not worthy of its full potential is extremely insulting to him. And let's be real, Vergil was not using the Yamato's full potential in 3.
 
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Veloran

Well-known Member
Officially standing, previously Capcom confirmed that anything outside the main games and DLC, beside the DMC1 light novel and the DMC4 (Deadly Fortune) novel is concidered outside of canon.
When was this ever stated? In fact I'm fairly certain it's just the opposite.

As far as the prostitute thing, for some reason in the novel even Sanctus suggests that Vergil hooked up with a prostitute and that was how Nero was born, it wasn't just the kids making fun of Nero in the orphanage because "everyone knows everyone and no one could identify Nero's mom".

That part about "not being treated well" still baffles me, though. This is a place that worships Sparda "just like a god". They have statues and iconography of Sparda. They all wear the same clothes and it seems everyone belongs to the Order of the Sword, even if they don't belong to the Holy Knights of the Order. This suggests they're indoctrinated at an early age, the religion is in all aspects of their life (it's like Yevon in FFX). In the novel it even says that Kyrie's and Credo's parents adopted Nero because he resembled Sparda with his white hair, so people knew what he looked like in his human form, it wasn't some type of well-kept secret. This does mean he should be treated well, but for some nonsensical reason, everyone else disregards the fact that this random boy is a spitting image of their Lord and Savior, and instead the children make fun of him and he's treated awfully outside of his adoptive parents.

It's like if people saw a child that looked exactly like Jesus Christ, and decided instead to throw stones at him because of "dubious parentage" instead of acknowledging his appearance as a miracle because he doesn't have identifiable parentage. Do they really think their God is beholden to earthly limitations when making inexplicable things happen?



That right there is part of why people disregarded the novel. The translation that you quoted came from a source that put their opinion everywhere instead of simply translating the product as accurately as possible.

Let's be honest here.

When the only translation for something people want to know more about opens its page with

"Warning: Reading this novel may be hazardous to your mind, body and soul.
Devil's Lair will not take responsibility for any trauma you may suffer. "


That does not help.

When the summary has sh!t like
  • "My god… can you ever imagine Vergil impregnating a human woman?!"
  • "I mean just think about it, really. Majestic beetle-looking cool demon with a kick ass giant sword… and a handgun. That… is… so… awesome…! *Shoots you if you agree*."
  • "Since when does Nero read??"
  • "He came into the scene to save Kyrie and a bunch of orphans she brought for a walk in the forest (LOL?)"
  • "He figured that perhaps this arm is now how it originally should have been, just like how a caterpillar transforms into a pupa and then a butterfly. (Yeah he made this analogy, not me!) He thought that perhaps he had simply reached that time in his life to be who he really was. o_O… Okay…?? LOL."
  • "The novel wrote it this way: "the cry of a soul that only one of the same blood origin can detect". (WTF LOOOL)"
  • "(Goddamn Capcom, they really wanna make it official that Vergil's dead.) This, my friend, is how Capcom/Bingo wants us to welcome Nero into the Sparda family. *Spazzes out*"
  • ""Can you hear it, the cry of a soul?" (LMAO)"
  • "*GASP* It's Nero soul…! Best. Idea. Ever. (Sorry for those of you who believe the handsome blue spirit is Vergil. Apparently it's not working out)"
  • "As part of their tradition, the new Pope was to rest in the private room at the top floor of Fortuna castle (which was believed to have been Sparda's) in order to 'inherit' his 'noble soul', whatever that means."
  • "As sucky as this story is, there's still a piece of good news – Nero isn't convinced so neither should we! Yippee yay! =D"
  • "Yamato was known as the sword that "separates/divides humans from demons", whatever the hell that means."
  • "he kept his own consciousness pretty much by his sheer will to live and protect the one(s) he loves (LOL?)."
  • "How did he know they share the same blood? He just could feel it. LOL."
  • "why does he still have these three devil arms if Trish hadn't taken them away? Talk about plot holes."
  • ""Perhaps it was Sparda's whim of the moment... Just like his son." He thought. Wow... seriously... =/"
  • "During Dante's battle against the Savior, he took care of a bunch of Angelos simply by performing Pandora's Omen move and they vanished instantly. So… convenient…"
  • "Dante actually said (to himself) that in terms of brute power, Nero might just be stronger than him. Bullshit."
  • "[...] if by any chance they meant "the soul with a passion to hunt demons for the good of humankind", we should be prepared to quit this series."
  • "If you ask me, this has nothing to do with anything but Lady still deducted some money for this 'reason' anyway. Bitch is bitch.
    The ironic part, though, is that the novel keeps defending her and explains that Lady is indeed fussy about money but that is not because she is money minded. Reason is, unlike Dante and Trish, she really needs the money as she has no demonic powers and is fully reliant on her weapons to fight, and those things ain't cheap. Yes that does make sense, but it doesn't justify why she'd charge Dante/Trish for helping them save the people, especially when the novel goes on to say that she works a demon hunter not for money but because she hates demons with a passion. If that's the case, you wouldn't bloody charge your buddies for helping out as a demon hunter! What a bullshit of an excuse."
  • "Lady asked to join Dante and Trish in their new mission, she suggested they have a competition - the one who kills the most demons gets to take all the money she brought to the office today. That is the dumbest thing ever. How on earth can Lady ever beat a demon and a half demon?"
That does not help.

People latched onto that as "proof" for why the novel sucked, because even the person delivering it to them in ENG thought it was stupid, bullshit, ridiculous, plot-hole ridden. I'm not saying that people aren't adults that can't make their own decisions on whether or not to like something, but for the people that already didn't like the concept of the novel to begin with, they agreed with CaT because there was no impartiality to the translation. It was negative from the beginning.

With respect to the game as for getting proof Nero was Vergil's kid, it did a poor job portraying that Nero was connected to the Sparda lineage outside of physical looks. He had the strength feat of pushing the sword off of the Sparda statue and, if you count it, fighting toe to toe with Dante, but a) Dante was just "playing [him] from the beginning", and b) considering the stuff Lady could pull off even though it should be physically impossible for a normal human (see: surviving a fatal stab to her thigh that should have paralyzed her or bled her out), Nero could've just been "upper level human" instead of "1/4 demon".

There's also a bizarre leap in "Dante has no awakened DT, but can shrug off multiple stab wounds and still walk around with scythes embedded into him, and his DT is a full-body transformation like one his father presumably had" and "Nero has no awakened DT, gets stabbed once, is on death's door until he gets his DT and heals, then gets stabbed again on another occasion and is so drained of energy he needs the Yamato to even wake up and function normally, plus the DT is a ghost instead of full-body transformation". Nero is weak af in 4, and all that happened was a half-demon blood got cut in half again. If he had a son, that kid wouldn't even have a DT, probably, and his regeneration wouldn't even handle a papercut.

SOFT EDIT: I mean, if they wanted the game to at least suggest it outside of Sanctus saying so, they could've had the characters act like it. Not even Nero cares that Nero is Vergil's son. And yeah, Nero being Vergil's son is "obvious" now, but that makes it even worse. How could it not be obvious to the characters? Trish was infiltrating the Order, saw this white-haired punk, looked him dead in the eye, and didn't think "He's from the Sparda bloodline" and didn't relay that information to Dante? She got called out as "not anticipating" it. How? Nero wasn't some Dude McGuy with a dime-a-dozen features she could pass off as coming from someone else. White hair, blue eyes, pale skin, long coat. The character design screams "Dante clone" and Trish is blind somehow?

In terms of execution, Nero is like a terrible fanfiction OC. He exists, but with no regard as to how this affected the past games he would've already existed in. He was at least already born in DMC3. But the Vergil of that time, with having "fathering a child with a human woman" fresh in his personal timeline, would
a) still have "underestimate humans" as a character flaw deep enough for Arkham to exploit
b) casually kill a bunch of humans by raising a tower in a residential area, and if the tower's rise didn't kill them, the surge of demonic energy turning them into demons sure would have
c) "Why didn't you kill her? Perhaps because she's your daughter? Did some pesky 'fatherly love' get in the way?" "To further your study of the black arts, you sacrificed your loving wife to become a devil as well. Knowing this, I thought you'd be more useful to me, but I was wrong."
d) in case point c isn't clear, Vergil fully expects someone committed to the attainment of power to be able to kill their own flesh and blood. Fully knows that Arkham killed his wife, does not give one iota of a f#ck, called him out on not being ruthless enough.
e) somehow hold up through whatever Mundus put him through that ultimately broke or suppressed him, and undergoes this process without ever revealing he had a son.

Honestly, point e is the biggest problem IMO. Mundus captures Vergil, Vergil is defeated and brainwashed. Whether from torture or memory wipe, the specifics don't matter here. But Mundus hates the Sparda bloodline, would have killed them all when the kids were 8. No one thinks he would have gotten every last bit of information on if there was any of Sparda's blood left alive aside from Vergil? Like, he just found a Sparda. And Spardas are like roaches: you've seen one, there's probably more you don't know about. So he "broke" Vergil enough to take away his free will, but not enough to learn that Nero exists? Unless Vergil gave himself amnesia, or even he didn't know that he had a child, there’s no way Mundus wouldn't know about it. He had like, 9 years or so to find that out before Dante defeated him on Mallet.

Even keeping Nero's existence away from Arkham seems like a stretch. Arkham knows sh!t about Sparda it doesn't make sense to know, like who he impregnated and how many children he had, and treats it like a "legend"/"story". Highly unlikely that this is public knowledge or recorded in a book. He knew that Eva died 11 years before the manga in an inexplicable occurrence with a burned down house and signs of a struggle. He knew about the legend involving the priestess and knew that Lady would carry the same blood (either through him or his wife, depending on the source). But he wouldn't know that the guy he's talking to had a kid? His inexplicable "power of research" could've sussed out Vergil having Nero before Vergil even thought of having Nero.



In addition, pretty sure people should remember the various interviews where it seemed even the directors had no idea about the timeline. "Dante is 19 years old in DMC3" (Itsuno), "Nero is as old as Dante was in DMC3" (Kobayashi), "Lady appeared in 3, and now she’s about ten years older than she was in that one, but she’s grown up very nicely, as you’ll see." (Kobayashi). At least one of those things needed to be retconned after the fact (Tatsuya Yoshikawa saying in the 3142 artbook that 4Dante was "around 40 years old"), and even then it doesn't jive with the novel (Vergil visiting Fortuna "16-17 years" before DMC4, which would have placed his visit after he became Nelo Angelo in the timeline when he's obviously not, or Dante would be early 30s in 4 instead of "Almost 40" or "approaching 40").

And there was the problem with subtitles in the SE, increasing skepticism. "Fortuna, a few decades ago" in the ENG subtitles, versus German subs “Fortuna, over 10 years ago…” and the Japanese had



“十数年前 , フォルトゥナ" = “jyuusuunen mae, Forutuna” = “Fortuna, over a decade ago” = “Fortuna, 10 years give or take a few months”, or more liberally, “10 plus a couple more years”, whereas ‘a few decades’ would have been rendered in JP as ‘suujyuunen’ (数十年) rather than ‘jyuusuunen’, making Vergil's visit too recent for Nero's age.

You know, all of the issues you're raising here are easily explainable. People treating Nero badly? He naturally has a bad attitude and people respond in kind, plus in their ultra-religious society the whole idea that he was a bastard would obviously go over badly, since it's not like Sparda has any kind of immaculate conception ideas around him, and Nero was outright abandoned.

Nero's heritage? Dante obviously knew or at least suspected, probably from the start, made obvious by how he gives Yamato to Nero despite saying it needed to be kept in the family. As for Nero, he has no real reason to care, and the others have pretty good reason not to saddle him with that kind of pointless baggage. "Oh yeah, your probable dad happens to be Dante's brother, who destroyed an entire city in pursuit of power, before Dante killed him, and then he was enslaved, and Dante killed him again." Kind of a harsh thing to lay on him for no real reason, especially when he had just gotten done getting over being part Demon to begin with.

Nero's level of power? You're downplay him very greatly, he's already superhuman and can pull insane feats, fight toe-to-toe with Demons physically, and utilize magic even before getting Yamato. Those events in the lab should've instantly killed a human being.

Knowledge of Nero not getting out? Easy enough to say that even Vergil himself didn't know Nero existed.

The timeline? Obviously it's the Lady quote that's actually incorrect. Nero is a teenager in 4, meaning anywhere from, say, sixteen to nineteen years have past since DMC3, making all of the claims at least close to accurate. Moreover, that's also assuming that Vergil's visit to Fortuna was very close to DMC3, when it could have been a few years prior. Regardless, DMC has no exact timeline, but Nero's existence is completely plausible given the information we have.

It'd be pretty screwy if this super powerful Arm was just an empty sword with no soul in it whatsoever.
Yamato is supposedly "dark-forged", no? Why can't it just have been an armament forged by Sparda, or which existed prior to him, without a Demon residing inside? Even if it can create or destroy Hellgates, Vergil could simply not know how to do such a thing, as setting up a permanent portal could require a much more elaborate ritual than the simple, momentary tears he creates with his Judgment Cuts.

You're also forgetting that in DMC3, Vergil was out to recover Sparda. It's extremely likely that just getting in to the Demon World wouldn't have helped him at all, he needed to break Sparda's seal and find where Force Edge was secured. Assuming the Demon World is at least as expansive as the human world (And from the looks of it, it's WAY more convoluted), just entering randomly would have been worthless.

Vergil casts a demonic shadow for a form he's never shown having at all in 3, even though the Fortuna visit is before 3, but the shadow resembles Nero's DT form, and Nero can't pre-natally project himself-- or at least, I sure as hell hope not.
I think you're just over-analyzing symbolism for Vergil having left a shadow of himself (Nero) in Fortuna.

And they'd have to do a hell of a job explaining how "Vergil" in Nero's vision is "cold, but gentle" when he never met the guy, and the man actually smiles before granting Nero his power, whereas "V" in 5 just slices off Nero's arm.
A million different possible explanations. You'll note that despite tearing off Nero's arm and (Presumably) retrieving Yamato, Vergil doesn't kill Nero in that scene, and in fact didn't attack him immediately either. Depending on the circumstances at that time, it follows that Vergil would save and empower Nero in DMC4, and then return for the sword later on for his own reasons. Given a major theme of the game looks to be revenge, probably that. But that's just one avenue.
 

Veloran

Well-known Member
http://devilmaycry.wikia.com/wiki/Devil_May_Cry_Wiki:Canonicity?useskin=oasis

I couldn't recall exactly, though the Wikia has it's sources cited. My mistake, the novels are semi-canon. Though jury's still out on Pachinko machines!
Nothing there says Capcom ever declared anything non-canon though. In fact, the claims of the non-canon section are completely unsourced.

As it is, literally all Devil May Cry official material is canon. That's especially true now given how they're incorporating many things from non-game material into DMC5 directly. Frankly, I would assume that's also true for the pachinko machines, at least to some extent.
 

DarkSlayer54

Well-known Member
Nothing there says Capcom ever declared anything non-canon though. In fact, the claims of the non-canon section are completely unsourced.

As it is, literally all Devil May Cry official material is canon. That's especially true now given how they're incorporating many things from non-game material into DMC5 directly. Frankly, I would assume that's also true for the pachinko machines, at least to some extent.

I'll have to read the first two novels again... but I remember details in there clashing with DMC3. Ever since then, I've just assumed that DMC3 retconned those novels.

If DMC5 is trying to achieve the reverse, and make the material outside of the games canon, then I'd be pretty happy about that. That would show that they're taking greater care with the story, which is something I've always wanted to see.
 

Morgan

Well-known Member
Premium
Xen-Ace 2021
You know, all of the issues you're raising here are easily explainable. People treating Nero badly? He naturally has a bad attitude and people respond in kind, plus in their ultra-religious society the whole idea that he was a bastard would obviously go over badly, since it's not like Sparda has any kind of immaculate conception ideas around him, and Nero was outright abandoned.

He couldn't "naturally" have a bad attitude, he'd need to learn it somewhere. He was a CHILD when he was being made fun of. And you're saying this is an ultra-religious society that worships Sparda, who was super-duper just and righteous, but they also think making fun of/neglecting a child for being a bastard is an okay thing to do. Okay. Sure. If Capcom was going for a criticism on the hypocrisy of religious people, I'd believe this, but those people all seem incredibly devout to their Savior and his values (protecting the weak, and loving your fellow human). Every last one of them except Nero is devout.

Nero's level of power? You're downplay him very greatly, he's already superhuman and can pull insane feats, fight toe-to-toe with Demons physically, and utilize magic even before getting Yamato. Those events in the lab should've instantly killed a human being.

Well no sh!t. I'm saying the events in the Tower in 3 should've also "instantly killed a human being" (Lady). She didn't undergo a ritual, she's not a half-demon, she got stabbed in a fatal area of her leg. But there she is, still alive. She not only got impaled in the leg, she clearly stood on that wounded leg perfectly fine, then climbed up a tower, and while she was still taking a breather she tried to pick a fight with Dante. A 100% human can survive whatever events the writers feel like writing even when it doesn't make any sense. Nero could've been 100% human from beginning to end and if it were canon, it'd be canon.

Knowledge of Nero not getting out? Easy enough to say that even Vergil himself didn't know Nero existed.

"Easy enough" -- You don't have actual proof that Vergil didn't know Nero existed. And if that's the case, no one should be using his "Might controls everything. And without strength, you cannot protect anything" quote to claim that Nero had been conceived in the writing for DMC3. He obviously wasn't.

The timeline? Obviously it's the Lady quote that's actually incorrect. Nero is a teenager in 4, meaning anywhere from, say, sixteen to nineteen years have past since DMC3, making all of the claims at least close to accurate. Moreover, that's also assuming that Vergil's visit to Fortuna was very close to DMC3, when it could have been a few years prior. Regardless, DMC has no exact timeline, but Nero's existence is completely plausible given the information we have.

Information that contradicts each other from interview to interview. In E3 2015, Itsuno said that Lady was in her Mid-20s in 4 and used the term "juunen", suggesting the "ten years older in 4 than in 3" thing or actually calling her a tenth-year (a 15-year-old) in 3, lining up with "mid20s in 4".

You keep saying "obviously" and "easy enough" or "easily explainable". Can you try NOT saying that in an argument and still making the argument? Nothing is "obvious" or inarguable here. If it was, we wouldn't be bringing it up. You saying it is so doesn't make it true. The fact that Capcom can't seem to keep continuity in its own media is a point against it and whether people believe Nero is Vergil's son and why or why not. Capcom cannot keep continuity, and every new installment is them doing damage control.

Yamato is supposedly "dark-forged", no? Why can't it just have been an armament forged by Sparda, or which existed prior to him, without a Demon residing inside?

Because it has the WILL and the power to divide and wipeout the darkness. A will. I'm sure you know what that is. Something with a will isn't going to not have one.

You're also forgetting that in DMC3, Vergil was out to recover Sparda.

I didn't forget anything. That's just irrelevant. The Yamato can open and destroy Hellgates. The Temen-ni-Gru was a Hellgate. Yamato could have made it redundant by just opening a portal into the pocket dimension that the Force Edge was in instead of going through all the trouble to unseal the Tower via the Seven Sins, get the amulet, put the amulet in an altar, and sacrifice his own blood (and that of a mortal priestess).

The only thing obligating that the Temen-ni-Gru lead exactly to where the Force Edge was in was the fact that it already happened that way in-game to make it short (basically, "the writers wrote it that way"), because unless YOU want to pull some fanfiction ideas, it doesn't actually make sense that the FE would conveniently be in a pocket dimension right above Dante's town (was it always there?), or that the Temen would have opened a portal to that area and not a general point in Hell (considering Hell is expansive and convoluted, in your own words), or that the dimension is locked onto wherever the tower is but the tower may or may not be (It's named after a Ziggurat in Iraq. Dante probably doesn't live in Iraq).

And are you really worried about Vergil getting lost when 99% of Hell that we've seen is just a linear path from point A to point B with no actual chance of someone being unable to find what they're looking for? The other 1% is Hell being a "floating island of nothing" in DMC2, see: every battle against Noctpteran and Argosax.

I think you're just over-analyzing symbolism for Vergil having left a shadow of himself (Nero) in Fortuna.

And I think you're just being willfully obtuse for the sake of arguing against someone. Next!

A million different possible explanations. You'll note that despite tearing off Nero's arm and (Presumably) retrieving Yamato, Vergil doesn't kill Nero in that scene, and in fact didn't attack him immediately either. Depending on the circumstances at that time, it follows that Vergil would save and empower Nero in DMC4, and then return for the sword later on for his own reasons. Given a major theme of the game looks to be revenge, probably that. But that's just one avenue.

I really don't care about "a million different possible explanations" when only a few of them are plausible and you only brought up one in a lame attempt at a Doctor Strange impersonation.
 

Veloran

Well-known Member
He couldn't "naturally" have a bad attitude, he'd need to learn it somewhere.
Not at all, no. To begin with, being an abandoned orphan is a pretty good reason to have a chip on your shoulder from the outset. Secondly there's quite a bit of indication that Dante, being part Demon, had a lot of trouble understanding and dealing with human emotions growing up, and he wasn't even in an ultra-strict tightly-controlled religious order like Nero, so if the same applies to him it's no wonder Nero hated the whole thing. Thirdly, you act like there's no genetic or biological basis for behavior at all, and this is Vergil's kid we're talking about. Finally, the idea that he would need to "learn" bad behavior of course implies that the same is true for other people, which in turn creates the dilemma of where bad attitudes originated to begin with if nobody is predisposed towards such issues. Basically no, what you're saying is false.

And you're saying this is an ultra-religious society that worships Sparda, who was super-duper just and righteous, but they also think making fun of/neglecting a child for being a bastard is an okay thing to do.
Why not? Their image of Sparda is clearly twisted. Their plans are basically the exact opposite of what he would have wanted too. There's no reason for why they should all be saints and act justly towards everyone.

Well no sh!t. I'm saying the events in the Tower in 3 should've also "instantly killed a human being" (Lady). She didn't undergo a ritual, she's not a half-demon, she got stabbed in a fatal area of her leg. But there she is, still alive. She not only got impaled in the leg, she clearly stood on that wounded leg perfectly fine, then climbed up a tower, and while she was still taking a breather she tried to pick a fight with Dante. A 100% human can survive whatever events the writers feel like writing even when it doesn't make any sense. Nero could've been 100% human from beginning to end and if it were canon, it'd be canon.
Again, no. A stab wound in the leg is a believable injury to survive depending on how and where exactly it's carried out, particularly since she's treated off-screen and presumably came prepared to have to deal with injuries to herself. Moreover, you're forgetting that she's visibly very fatigued from that point onwards and even passes out after her fight with Dante. This is reasonable for a human being, particularly from a narrative standpoint, particularly given we're already assuming the rules at play in this universe are more lenient than in reality.

I'm also absolutely certain you haven't played DMC4 in a long, long time if you think that he, as a human, could pull off the feats he does, and that this,
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and this,
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is somehow equal to this,
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and that they're all just as believable for a human to survive as each other. They aren't.

"Easy enough" -- You don't have actual proof that Vergil didn't know Nero existed.
You have no proof that he did know. You don't even have proof that if he did, that it would be uncovered. It's pure supposition on your end from both angles, and both aren't supported by anything. Honestly, given that your idea is the one that requires positive evidence, I think the burden is on you.

And if that's the case, no one should be using his "Might controls everything. And without strength, you cannot protect anything" quote to claim that Nero had been conceived in the writing for DMC3. He obviously wasn't.
First off, maybe I just missed it, but I don't see anybody having claimed that here. Secondly, it's conceivable that Nero was conceived from that quote, even if at time of writing it wasn't done with Nero in mind. Regardless of whether it's referencing him or not, the message is still the same.

Information that contradicts each other from interview to interview. In E3 2015, Itsuno said that Lady was in her Mid-20s in 4 and used the term "juunen", suggesting the "ten years older in 4 than in 3" thing or actually calling her a tenth-year (a 15-year-old) in 3, lining up with "mid20s in 4".
It isn't a surprising gaff considering that culturally, Japan doesn't really like older women. Taking teenage Lady in 3 and jumping to 4 saying that she's in her thirties or even older, that would not be a popular move. In any event, you're getting hung up on an irrelevancy.

Can you try NOT saying that in an argument and still making the argument?
Perhaps what I should be saying is, your arguments are pointlessly anal over small details and functionally mean nothing.

and whether people believe Nero is Vergil's son and why or why not
That hasn't been something you could choose whether or not to believe in for like ten years. First it was the game and people saying "WELL IT WASN'T DIRECTLY STATED SO IT ISN'T CANON", then it was the novel and "WELL THE NOVEL ISN'T CANON", then the artbook and "THE ARTBOOK ISN'T CANON EITHER", then 4SE with "IT ISN'T SAID OUTRIGHT THERE EITHER", and now we have DMC5 and they're being extremely open about it and people are still in denial, latching on to whatever they can to say it isn't true.

Frankly, it's just dumb at this point.

Because it has the WILL and the power to divide and wipeout the darkness. A will. I'm sure you know what that is. Something with a will isn't going to not have one.
The weapon file you're referencing, from DMC1 where Yamato had a completely different design, none of the powers or lore as in the later games, and didn't actually exist in the story I might add, actually says that "It is said that it has the will and the power to divide and wipe out the darkness". Meaning, your argument here is quite literally based in hearsay.

Moreover, this is at the time of DMC1, no? In fact, it's technically postgame DMC1. IE, the idea that Vergil's soul is possessing the sword at this point is (Though technically it was previously as well) plausible, meaning the "will" at play is not necessarily one separate from Vergil himself.

Also, gotta note, when Nero speaks about the voice and more power, he's actually referencing a flashback to the day his arm changed. Given that he did not have Yamato at this point, those words could not have come from the sword.

That's just irrelevant.
Incorrect. It is very relevant given that the tower was the path to and seal on the sword in a fairly direct sense.

The Temen-ni-Gru was a Hellgate.
Again, supposition here. You're assuming that it was the same as the gates in DMC4 despite differing wildly in design, functionality, complexity, and even origin.

Yamato could have made it redundant by just opening a portal into the pocket dimension that the Force Edge was in instead of going through all the trouble to unseal the Tower via the Seven Sins, get the amulet, put the amulet in an altar, and sacrifice his own blood (and that of a mortal priestess).
Again, huge suppositions at play here. All of that is just your own speculation, and you're using said speculation to claim a plot hole. This is not good argumentation.

The only thing obligating that the Temen-ni-Gru lead exactly to where the Force Edge was in was the fact that it already happened that way in-game to make it short (basically, "the writers wrote it that way"),
In other words, the only thing obligating that said circumstances were true... Is that they were true.

it doesn't actually make sense that the FE would conveniently be in a pocket dimension right above Dante's town (was it always there?), or that the Temen would have opened a portal to that area and not a general point in Hell (considering Hell is expansive and convoluted, in your own words), or that the dimension is locked onto wherever the tower is but the tower may or may not be
Sparda sealed Force Edge and all of his power along with the tower, and the amulets specifically functioned both to open the portal and unlock the power within his sword. It follows completely both that said portal would lead directly to said sword, that the location of said sword would be inaccessible from elsewhere in the Demon World for extremely obvious reasons, that Sparda might settle in said area of said tower to watch over said portal and said sword, and that said town would become Dante's hometown by virtue of Sparda being in the area, meeting his mother, and conceiving him there.

I'm not sure if you've thought about this too much or not at all, because your logic is completely backwards on all points. And that's to say nothing of your inane insinuation that the entire Demon World is a line and an island.

And I think you're just being willfully obtuse for the sake of arguing against someone.
Well, with that logic you could say a lot of things in DMC hold some crazy, direct and real meanings. Like those numbers that just happened to show up everywhere in DMC3? Perhaps it was a secret code from the goddess of space and time? Or how about Dante's office exploding at the end of 4? I bet that cost him a pretty penny huh? I guess a stray gas line was open? Or maybe it was a demon attack! Of course, you'd need to be willfully obtuse to say that it was just cool imagery.

I really don't care about "a million different possible explanations" when only a few of them are plausible and you only brought up one in a lame attempt at a Doctor Strange impersonation.
Many explanations are plausible. But the fact is, you're just jumping the gun for no reason. You're claiming extreme inconsistency despite not knowing the situation, the motivations at play in either scenario, or really anything whatsoever at all about these events. Again, this is all extremely poor on your part. You called out that CaT for being very negative and non-impartial in your first post in this thread, but as far as I can tell you're doing the same thing right now and arguing from emotion on many points.
 
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V's patron

be loyal to what matters
To me, Nero's mom should be made of sterner stuff and a hunter/witch. I don't see Mr. Might is Everything putting up with a damsel in distress for too long. Even if she's a non-combatant like Kat, I can see Vergil teaching her how to fight or basic survival stuff.

I'd prefer if she were still alive but her being deceased sets Nero up easier. My problem with Vergil being Nero's dad is i don't see Vergil letting other people raise his kid. He's not a nurturing person but i see him as too driven by legacy to let it happen. Him being consumed by grief is a good handwave for that.

I'm pretty sure this all for naught but ehh i gotta stretch my creative muscle.

Ps. It would be funny if she's an angel.
 

ROCKMAN X

Keyser Söze
This was ALWAYS obvious, the only other explanation for why Nero is half-demon and is so bonded with Yamato could be something super contrived&complicated like Nero being a clone of Vergil or being a human who got "Possessed" by the spirit of Nelo Angelo. The simple answer? he's goddamn Vergil's son... Vergil got motivated one night, it just happened, i can buy that.
 

Lain

Earthbound Immortal
Premium
The simple answer? he's goddamn Vergil's son... Vergil got motivated one night, it just happened, i can buy that.
The way I always envisioned it was always a Vegeta esque sort of deal - A younger and less experienced Vergil goes to Fortuna and maybe he tries to take on a powerful demon but one way or another he gets injured and Nero's mother finds him and offers him a place to stay until he's healed. The Florence Nightingale effect happens and a night of passion transpires. By morning Vergil has fully healed and he departs like the wind presumably not aware of Nero's conception since he apparently didn't leave anything behind for his son unlike Sparda did for his children.
 

Morgan

Well-known Member
Premium
Xen-Ace 2021
> Guy impregnates woman, conceives a child who's the spitting image of him, promptly dies without ever finding that out until years later

Vegeta esque

:facepalm: Don't insult my boy Vegeta like that; what Vergil pulled was clearly Goku-esque.
 

Lain

Earthbound Immortal
Premium
:facepalm: Don't insult my boy Vegeta like that; what Vergil pulled was clearly Goku-esque.
Eh, when I said that I was thinking of when Trunks first revealed his parentage and explained that it was basically a one night stand between two lonely people rather than an act of love.

But you're right. Vegeta does try to be a good parent later on. One of my favourite scenes in Super was his family day out with Bulma and Trunks. <3
 

Morgan

Well-known Member
Premium
Xen-Ace 2021
Eh, when I said that I was thinking of when Trunks first revealed his parentage and explained that it was basically a one night stand between two lonely people rather than an act of love.

But you're right. Vegeta does try to be a good parent later on. One of my favourite scenes in Super was his family day out with Bulma and Trunks. <3
Haha, I know what you meant, I just had to get a joke in about Vegeta being a better father than Goku.
 
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