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What should/shouldn't rub off from DmC into DMC5?

EvilX-81

Well-known Member
DmC did some things right and some wrong, so I thought this could be a fun can to kick around.

Your thoughts? I'll add my list in later (lol lazy).
 

Loopy

Devil hunter in training
Should not do in DMC5:
  • Sex scenes!:lol: They just come off as awkward.
  • Angel/demon modes as they have nothing to do with DMC5 plot anyway.
  • Too many cutscenes in boss fights. I found them a little distracting and broke up the action.
What they shouldo do:
  • Same high quality motion capture. I love how little facial expression were shown and it adds a new layer of believability to the characters.
  • More chance for characters to develop and grow.
  • More environments like Limbo.
  • Some sort of mix between DmC and DMC art style.
 
D

Deleted member 25469

Guest
  • Angel Lift should be replaced with Air Trick. Demon Pull can stay.
  • Ebony and Ivory need to be reverted to their previous "one button press = one shot", instead of two shots per press.
  • Firearm charge for the pistols and shotgun should be like in DMC3/DMC4
  • Upwards rainstorm can stay.
  • Twosome Time needs to be back in the game.
  • Animations need to be snappier and have faster startups: They should be more "japanese fighting game", like in DMC4.
  • Hard, dedicated lock-on please.
  • Enemy vitality indicators, PLEASE. They are crucial to stylish combo endings.
  • Devil Trigger activation colors can stay like this: They are SUPER stylish.
  • However the Devil Trigger must be less OP and be more available (It's too scarce)
  • All weapons should have well-fleshed out combos: Why aren't there double-tap inputs for the Special Melee button? Why aren't there double-tap inputs in the air? Why does the arbiter lack a Melee Hold attack? Why aren't there double tap inputs for the guns? Why arent there Melee + Special Melee button actions?
  • Style system needs to be more demanding (DMC3, DMC4)
  • I wouldn't mind the Crazy Combos system coming back.
  • The Kablooey was pretty meh. We need more unique firearms, like the Pandora or Artemis.
  • How about a second human weapon? The D-Pad Down button is quite lonely. I vote for Yamato at some point in the game, or as a post-completion unlock.
  • 60 fps for consoles, for the love of god.
  • Challenging bloody palace, please. Current BP is a joke for the first 50 levels or so.
  • Color coded enemies can come back, but ALL WEAPONS must be usable on them: Just have a superior damage modifier for the correct alignment.
  • Enemies need slightly faster attacks. They telegraph their moves for too long.
  • Bosses should have NO CUTSCENES and NO CONTEXT SENSITIVE ACTIONS. Good ol' school boss fight with a hearty dose of challenge.
  • Aquila roundrip needs to GTFO o get nerfed big time.
  • No sex.
  • No allusions to dirrrrty sex.
  • Dante needs to joke more and "***** you" less.
  • Dante needs to stop bragging about "killin' demons and gettin' laid"
  • Dante could use some meat on his bones.
  • Dante could use some lack of wife-beater shirt.
  • Dante could use some wearing his coat on TOP of his shoulders as opposed to falling down his arms. Who the hell does that.
 

Demi-fiend

Metempsychosis
Supporter 2014
Vergil already has "Air Trick". You need to differentiate the characters through their movesets, so it wouldn't make sense for Dante to have one as well.
 

EvilX-81

Well-known Member
Vergil already has "Air Trick". You need to differentiate the characters through their movesets, so it wouldn't make sense for Dante to have one as well.

But Dante has Air Trick too I think in trickster style.

I think there might be some confusion; the thread is about things that could be taken from DmC to improve a hypothetical DMC5, and what they shouldn't use.

Speaking of which;

Should take:
----------------
- The looser Jump mechanic. I always felt DMC's jumping mechanics were a little stiff.

- Remember how in DMC you need to collect most of the orbs in a level to get an S for the orbs? Swap that perhaps with DmC's item S. You collect all the items in the level, you get an S for that category. Or take it out altogether, because it's tedious as crap running around collecting orbs each time you play that level.

- Style/Weapon switching. For me, it felt much easier and fluid to switch stances holding or not holding a button than DMC4's directional pad selecting. And DMC4 compounded that with needing to remember how many button taps to get to whatever weapon I want on the L and R buttons.

- Storyline. DmC's storyline was rather fun to play through IMO. The most fun of any of the DMC storylines. It didn't overly dick us around with raising and not answering questions, or being annoyingly cryptic. (BTW; anybody have any idea what DMC3 Dante meant when he told Shadow Dante he already had the answers he wanted?) Also, Mundus did come off as a legitimate threat, forcing them to accomplish multiple tasks in order to take him on directly. I'd love to see another villain push classic Dante to his limits again. Also I personally thought DmC struck a better balance on Dante's cockiness that he wasn't blatantly showing off at every idle moment. Could've used more badass fight scenes though to give us more a grasp of what this Dante can do canonically, but on the otherhand, I think they were trying to focus on you doing cool things rather than watching the game do cool things.


Shouldn't:
-------------
- A bloody palace made with all characters in mind. I'm pretty sure the only reason vergil wasn't in BP was because of the scripted bosses. Between that and perhaps the colored enemies, that was a large snowballing misstep overall.

- Demon/Angel pull: while fun as hell and fliud, I felt that it made comboing a little too easy. A least for Dante anyway. Using Vergil's pulls gives me a rush, setting up other enemies with swords to use them to help me move around...

- Difficulty: It could've been a tad tougher, especially the bosses. Not with the people though who need the game to be ninja gaiden/nintendo hard though.
 
- Demon/Angel pull: while fun as hell and fliud, I felt that it made comboing a little too easy. A least for Dante anyway.

I disagree with this. I think the game should increase difficulty by adding more powerful foes, instead of weakening powerful elements. At least that's the kind of game design philosophy I like, buff other skills to match powerful ones instead of nerfing ones that seem overpowered. I like having more control and ease of access, the combos should come from creativity and not restrictive control mechanics.
 

Stylish Nero

We Dem Boys!!
Should not do in DMC5:
  • Sex scenes!:lol: They just come off as awkward.
  • Angel/demon modes as they have nothing to do with DMC5 plot anyway.
  • Too many cutscenes in boss fights. I found them a little distracting and broke up the action.
What they shouldo do:
  • Same high quality motion capture. I love how little facial expression were shown and it adds a new layer of believability to the characters.
  • More chance for characters to develop and grow.
  • More environments like Limbo.
  • Some sort of mix between DmC and DMC art style.

I have to disagree with the first "should do"?

That would increase development costs for no good reason which will then have Capcom set higher sales expectations to meet the costs spent on developing game and when the game fails to reaches those set sales goals then you have Capcom b*tching again like how Square Enix pulled a lot of money for Tomb Raider (2013) into making sure Lara's hair looked and felt realistic then when TR failed to meet their demand they too start b*tching and I reply "B*TCH. Its your fault in spending so much money on Lara's hair." as well as other expensive stuff such as marketing and making a new engine.

Plus there has been plenty of old school games (and some current ones) that have succeeded in pulling out emotion from the player without the need of advanced technology or high quality motion capturing (Zelda games, Metal Gear Solid games, Bioshock Infinite looked rather cartoonish and was able to have more believable and emotional impact on me than DmC with its realistic motion capture can ever do, and even the scene when Lady killed her father in DMC3 was pretty impactful on me).

Plus I'll rather have that money spent elsewhere on something more relevant than believability....like gameplay...or content.

Something similar to MGR or Anarchy Reigns is enough for me.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjaeaZQWeLA


Or it could be slightly better.
 

IncarnatedDemon

Well-known Member
Motion Capure in DMC 5 is a bad idea. A really bad one.
Let´s be real here, it´s not necessary in a hack and slash and will probably take up resources.
Resources that can be used on things that are more important.

NT didn´t seem to have much money left for Downfall because there was little major cutscenes in that DLC, only badly done cartoon cutscenes.
 

Stylish Nero

We Dem Boys!!
What should rub off from DmC to DMC5?

.....hmmmm........errrrhhh....huuuuummmmm...ahhhhh.....hmmmm....I guess stage hazards...but this time they can kill you...

What shouldn't rub from DmC to DMC5?

Everything else.

If anything DMC5 should take notes from actually good/great Hack n Slash/action games (DMC1, DMC3, Bayonetta, MGR, NG, No More Heroes, God Hand, Okami, etc) but filter out all the bad stuff in those games (Bayonetta's terrible QTE/button mashing segments, DMC1 making you fight every boss fight over and over again and terrible camera, NMH's f*cked upness, and MGR's camera) and take what it developed in DMC4 and push it further or develop it into a more user friendly hack n slash or something like MvC3 where there is a normal mode for the DMC purists and skill based players and a simple mode for the casual noobs who can't handle the challenge.

Well there is one thing DMC can learn from DmC, is at least explain sh*t in the story and not leave us in the dark all the times....its nice and all and gives you a good reason to continue the story but it gets annoying.
 

IncarnatedDemon

Well-known Member
Might as well reboot DMC for a second time if we´re going to play this game of "What should be in DMC 5 from DmC". It´s like if even DMC should become "DmC".
We all know what should be in DMC independt of DmC.

Better story telling, better gameplay.
Not rushing the project
DMC 4 Dante and the gameplay itself were rushed, and we got backtracking and Dante wearing cowboy pants or whatever.

If we´re going to make DMC5 into a pseudo DmC, then i suggest you might as well reboot DMC for a second time.

You can call it:
DmC 5: We´ve Done it Again
 

Goldsickle

Well-known Member
Import the current control scheme but with lock-on.

DMC1-4 unnecessarily carried over "Survival Horror" controls that have long overstayed it's welcome.
 

crush

Well-known Member
The evading controls were quite good. It makes more cancelling options and also makes the player dodge in one button.
Which means Capcom have the freedom of making more stronger enemies if they want.
 

VineBigBoss

GGXRD <3
Import the current control scheme but with lock-on.

DMC1-4 unnecessarily carried over "Survival Horror" controls that have long overstayed it's welcome.

Sorry, but nope.avi. DmC control scheme would kills so many buttons for no reason and that kills the potential diversity of a next DMC game. Just compare a little the control scheme and character (in a playable perspective) design in DMC4: pressing one button on the D-PAD you could acess at least 3 other movements by changing styles, each one with their very own purposes and style of play and they can be mixed to make the game even more diverse. Shoulder buttons to change weapons and have at least 3 of them instantly, the same for firearms, no need to hold unnecessary buttons, in DMC3 you would hold DTE, drive, lock-on and shoot for different maneuvers, mainly the same buttons were used in DMC4 with exception of DTE button, in DmC you need to actually hold one button just to use another weapon. The dodge buttons would be pointless to a DMC title too, jumping and rolling works just as fine and you have many other tools like trickster's acrobatics or royalguard style (or even devil bringer counters) to avoid or parry monster's attacks. Not a good idea at all, DmC controls scheme was designed to be used in DmC only, would not fit in a DMC game so well.

Things that they could analyse and upgrade from DmC to use in a next DMC installment:

- D-PAD usage to change weapons with Nero, leave the unused shoulder button to implement new moves to Nero's moveset, like a second melee button or even a button to work with dual-wielding weapons (would be like a button for right and left hand weapons) to use different moves and mix combos with Red Queen + new weapon, if you consider exceed mechanics to work with the dual-handling to get different movements you'll have a gigantic moveset to Nero.

What they should not reuse from DmC:

- Enviromental kills, this just kill all the purpose of the combat, which is the main aspect of a DMC game.
- Dumb grab/pull mechanics, DB grab/pull mechanics worked just as fine in DMC4, it has much more reasonable range than DmC's one, you still have to think of what you are doing to keep up one combo going.
- Scripted bosses, cutscenes stoping the action, slow-motion kills, excessive plataforming, easy ways to hang in the air for much time and avoid all the risk of comboing for too long on some enemies
- Color-coded enemies and enemies that kills all the point in trying to do cool combos (Dreamrunners) or have dumb ways to just stop the action of the combat like Witches shields that render some tools useless until you break it (different from the Fallen Angels wings in DMC3, for example). Some enemies need to be hard to combo to the death like Arachnes or Fallen Angels from DMC3, but it has to be possible with skill, just like this:

Overall, they have to discard all that casualizing philosophy that NT used while designing DmC. They still can put a more casual character like Nero was compared to Dante in DMC4, but without dumbing all the entire game for this purpose and killing all the potential of the game in most aspects, like the challenge itself.

I don't see why DMC should use some DmC aspects on gameplay itself, their purpose of being a great game is kinda different. Even the devs stated that they wanted to give a more cool casual experience than a deep game by itself (which DMC is recognized to be). I'm not saying here that DmC "did all wrong", but DmC clearly had a different purpose behind all the design the devs put on that game, DMC is a very different thing on its core and just some ideas could be reworked to use in a next DMC game.

I disagree with this. I think the game should increase difficulty by adding more powerful foes, instead of weakening powerful elements. At least that's the kind of game design philosophy I like, buff other skills to match powerful ones instead of nerfing ones that seem overpowered. I like having more control and ease of access, the combos should come from creativity and not restrictive control mechanics.

It does not work this way, just look at the most "difficulty" foes on DmC: Dreamrunners. They have a dumb way to stop the action of a fight to look more difficult, they stop your combos even in mid-air because of the easyness to pull out that kind of combo, the game don't real give you tools to fool them and keep your combos going with creativity and skill, their parries work in a similar way to the color-coded enemies: they limit the players option to an extent where you have to use one strategy to deal great ammount of damage with less hits (like using DE with some strong movements, for example). The Arachnes from DMC3 had a similar parrying tool followed by a "charge" attack, but still you could keep up your combos by timing them right or having the knowledge to juggle them a little and use your style to keep hurting them (using trickster to still be on their heads when they just finish the attacks, or using just-release of RG style in the right timing to deal a little damage while avoiding being hurt by their attacks). This "cap" between players skills is a necessary thing for a game offer good tools for you to tackle monster (the tools cannot be that easy to use, or else the game will be too easy) while not being totally dumb and easy to deal with them, comparing fighting with Arachnes and Dreamrunners you will see that even a high skilled player will get stuck with their combos and "CUHRAYZEENESS" with a DR because the enemy has a mechanic that counter directly any attempt to deal damage to him with one melee attack even in mid-air (and even projectiles if he's not stunned).

I will show one example of what a skilled player can do even with one anoying monster like Arachne, it starts at 2:18:


Look on how he juggles the monster to avoid that parrying thing and the games gives room for he to use another tools to deal damage while still keeping the close-range fight, this can be achieved with some knowledge of the enemy design itself and your tools, different from a Dreamrunner were you have to dodge all the time and he parries you even in mid-air.

Basically, resuming my point: if you give excelent tools that are too easy to use and master, you'll have to make dumb design choices for the game just not turn out in being the player comboing dummies in the stages and giving no challenge at all. The learning curve is very important to a challenging and interesting game, so the difficult to master a game is justified by itself, but it can get along with a lot of mechanical, playable features and even can affect directly the diversity that a hack'n'slash will offer to you.
 
I would have to play the old DMC games to really understand some of the points you're making, but I had to give a like for a well thought out response to my initial statement. I think there could be a beautiful medium between the deeper mechanics you're talking about and the visual elements that I particularly love about the new DmC. As for the dreamrunners, I wouldn't say they're the hardest enemy per say, because I think the challenge in DmC is from certain combinations of enemies at once.
Additionally, I would argue that it is indeed possible to fight dream runners in a continuous air battle if one is good enough, but maybe not in as fluid as a manner as you show in that impressive video.
 

VineBigBoss

GGXRD <3
I would have to play the old DMC games to really understand some of the points you're making, but I had to give a like for a well thought out response to my initial statement. I think there could be a beautiful medium between the deeper mechanics you're talking about and the visual elements that I particularly love about the new DmC. As for the dreamrunners, I wouldn't say they're the hardest enemy per say, because I think the challenge in DmC is from certain combinations of enemies at once.
Additionally, I would argue that it is indeed possible to fight dream runners in a continuous air battle if one is good enough, but maybe not in as fluid as a manner as you show in that impressive video.

I really would encourage you to play and, if you have the time and desire, master these games (mainly DMC3 and 4). After you get some grasp on how the mechanics work. you'll see that harmony they managed to put in these games, you'll see the beauty in the design behind them, there's even things that you'll think that was just accidental but have some purpose in the end of the day.

And, seriously, i'm not trying to prove that DMC games are better than the DmC one. Far from it, videogames are meant to be enjoyable experiences, and easily someone can have more fun with DmC than with DMC, mainly in a first play or glance. But when we go to a more deep analysis it's inevitable to see that DMC has more of a experience to offer in gameplay terms.

And i think that it's possible to do a "middle-ground" between these two concepts, but you know... i'm a fan of that DMC experience and i think that it can give good experiences for both casuals and hardcores, in a short or long playtime. I don't want to see that specific franchise going that way, but i would support for real a game even like DmC was if it were a different franchise, a new IP. DMC is kinda a unique experience as a single-player and hack'n'slash/action game, that i am a fan and do not want to lose and want to see it be further explored and developed.

I expect that i not offended you in any manner, but i don't think that most DmC features would match so well in a DMC title.
 

Here's me doing some rough runs with a dreamrunner on dmd limiting the amount of parried attacks and trying to keep a forward momentum, it goes from most successful to least successful, at least in my eyes, there's about 5 runs so yeah, I do feel that with a little bit more work I could be even more aggressive, and avoid dodging or being parried. But let me know what you think.

Also, I guess to be fair, Dreamrunners are like mini-bosses, so their ninja like ability to parry makes sense, and I really happen to love the ebb and flow of battling them.
 
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