DMC5 Vid Says CAPCOM is Getting It Wrong

[KtWtWiS43]

***SPOILERS*** ***LEAKS***

Yoooooooooo, saw this blowing up on my feed. Thoughts my Devils?

 

[V's patron]

@KtWtWiS43
So the first bit about the devs not being into it you could take or leave it. There's probably some truth to it but I don't really care enough to give it more thought.

The second bit probably could have merit but I lost interest because I have different opinions on Nero. Don't get me wrong I don't think dressing Nero as DmC Dante was a good idea. But Nero was never successful at feeling like his own man and he was a jerk before DmC Dante so I don't really think it's as bad as he does.

He does a raise a point of the game having no coherent message but I don't think the series ever had one.

That leads into the third point of Capcom not understanding the characters which have been proven true.

@Lain might like the 14-minute mark tho.

The 4th point is about Capcom's bad business practices which also have been proven true.

 

[berto]

So the first bit about the devs not being into it you could take or leave it. There's probably some truth to it but I don't really care enough to give it more thought.

That's actually not true. Itsuno said that he approached one of the heads of Capcom and told him he wanted to make this game and the exec responded 'fine, but with the condition that the game looks to be of quality at first sight.' From what I understand Itsuno wants to make one last DMC game and he wants to go with a bang before he lets other have their go at it.

I'll have to watch the rest of the video but I agree about a lot of things and disagree with others. In fact, I am glad I'm not alone in some of these opinions, but I don't think they're all presented in the right manner nor do I think they're as condemning as he is advocating.

 

[Stylish Nero]

He does a raise a point of the game having no coherent message but I don't think the series ever had one.

[/QUOTE]

All 4 games seemingly have a consistent theme of love and humanity (as undercook as it can be sometimes) with the message probably being Humanity's strength and value comes from the bonds they share with each other and the love and compassion they show others. A theme Itsuno says will carry over into 5 and be emotional. The only game where I can't think of a clear theme or message would probably be DmC. I'm guessing its freedom.


I find it bizarre in his video he outright ignores gameplay and his arguments about story and characters are mostly directed towards DMC5 (a game that isn't even out yet) and not past installments (outside DMC4, a rushed product with a tumultuous development cycle, and I guess DmC not made by Capcom/Itsuno's team) and are really just assumptions based around his own perceptions of the rather limited media we know so far on the story (as one could easily look at the footage and things we saw so far and glean the opposition of his argument and claim DMC5 has the potential to tell the best story yet like this below post

"He also s***s on nero when frankly, if written well has a lot going on in this game. There’s a line in the trailer where he’s basically pleading with Dante and saying he’s got all the power he needs about the devil breaker, and Dante clearly thinks he’s dead weight after losing the bringer. It’s just oozing with an inferiority complex and the motivation to prove he can still make a difference. A literal part of his identity was essentially ripped away from him and this game is his journey to prove he’s not less of a man without the bringer, throw in a evil dad and there’s plenty the game can do with him as a character. Will it reach that potential? Who knows, probably not, but it’s a bit early to already be complaining."
-Quote from GameFAQs

Also like Itsuno said this game is the most story focused game in the series and JYB said fans will really enjoy the story. So I'm confident we will probably get something on par with DMC3 maybe better (since its the same writer) unless they pull a Nomura or MGS4.

 

[V's patron]

@berto
To me i didn't care much for his first point. It felt too much making a mountain out of a molehill. Too much overanalyzing for my tastes.

I guess he was trying to look past the pr-speak and judge itsuno/walker by their actions/presentation.


@Stylish Nero
Well DmC is also about love of humanity in addition to freedom. It could be done better but thats just preaching to the choir.

I'll change my statement then. It has a message just not done well.

To me, his third point about the characters is judging them from the past stories than DMC5 itself. He does use DMC5 but i felt his complain were also about their portrayal in the anime, 4, reboot etc.

We'll see how 5 stacks up when it releases. It gots potential but then so did the others. I'm optimistic but guarded.

 

[gmc]

lmao at all the dislikes, but im just starting watching it so lets see if its as bad as it seems

 

[berto]

lmao at all the dislikes, but im just starting watching it so lets see if its as bad as it seems

Of course it’s got a lot of dislikes. I can’t imagine a video criticizing Sonic games going over well with Sonic fans. He, or they, are getting dislikes not because their video or argument is in some way intrinsically bad or malicious but because they’d dare speak badly about a game people are hyped about. The same was true of people who made DmC videos defending it or arguing that it would be good. How many f%c$= you’s do you think they got in their comments section?

These guys seem to have a love of the series and are concerned of how things are going based on its history, and they aren’t wrong about a lot of things they mentioned. It’s just not the popular thing to say right now.

 

[gmc]

finished watching it, there was some stuff I agreed with and some stuff just way overanalyzed for my taste but yeah this hasnt broken my hype for the game

 

[Lain]

Watched the video, agreed with some points but disagreed with others. Some points were irrelevant and others ought to be held off until after the game actually comes out.

 

[absolitude]

lmao, got a feeling the vid was made by a DmC fan, wanted revenge or be a mirror to DmC haters. i like what he's doing honestly

anyway, the more i see DMC5 the more i feel NT had small role in DmC, that it was more itsuno.

 

[V's patron]

@absolitude
technically he does bash DmC so.... not likely.

 

[Stylish Nero]

@berto
To me i didn't care much for his first point. It felt too much making a mountain out of a molehill. Too much overanalyzing for my tastes.

I guess he was trying to look past the pr-speak and judge itsuno/walker by their actions/presentation.


@Stylish Nero
Well DmC is also about love of humanity in addition to freedom. It could be done better but thats just preaching to the choir.

I'll change my statement then. It has a message just not done well.

To me, his third point about the characters is judging them from the past stories than DMC5 itself. He does use DMC5 but i felt his complain were also about their portrayal in the anime, 4, reboot etc.

We'll see how 5 stacks up when it releases. It gots potential but then so did the others. I'm optimistic but guarded.

The others have potential in ideas but in hindsight the writings were on the wall and there were developmental factors that lead to those games problems. DMC4's budget was cut and rushed out leading to a tumultuous development cycle which the scenario writer complained there was a lack of communication between the writers, they let the worst guy possible to direct the anime (besides the DMC isn't the only anime adaptation for a game to suck outside Pokemon...which is debatable....and a few examples those tend to suck or not be as good as source material), and DmC by Capcom (mostly Inafune) wanted to go in an extremely different direction when they did the fan backlash made them recoil and try to appeal to the fans resulting in blending in two opposing tones that made the final product very narratively messy. DMC5 seems to not suffer from any development nightmares, its the same team that brought us DMC3 and DMC4 (with the added bonus of removing Kobayashi...thank god...and replacing him with Okabe who seems to understand the series better and pidgeon holds Itsuno a lot less that Kobayashi did), lack of publisher interference, and Itsuno and everyone on the team are very confident they made a good product where both story and gameplay will satisfy all types of fans. You don't just repeatedly go on stage say you made the best action game ever or that it will exceed all expectations. It most likely wont do both of those things to a lot of people but it shows the absolute confidence the team has in the project moreso than what they had with DMC4 and DmC heck even DMC3. While keeping your expectations low or moderate is a good way to approach these things but I am sure even you get high hopes for an upcoming product if it looks promising.

Also I never got the themes of love and humanity from DmC. It seems most of the conflict, character motivations (both protagonist and antagonists), and the final showdown and its conclusion is based around whether mankind should have the freedom to govern itself or having control over one's life. Even when in Dante's vision of Eva, her speech while it does mention love (granted Eva is no longer an angel so love and humanity is mute) it seems way more based around giving Dante the freedom and the choice to carve his own path. When it came time for the confrontation with both Mundus (the primary antagonist) and Vergil (the final boss) where in this point of the story both party fight over their ideals that are based around the themes of the story it all circles around freedom and choice.

Even when it came time for Dante to start caring for humanity and their plight what changes his opinion on mankind was the fact that humans like Kat (and only Kat based on Dante's own experiences) were stripped of the same freedoms he had. And when it came time for Dante to prove human's worth to counter Vergil's point It has more to do with human being capable of taking care of themselves based on the fact Kat, a human, was very "useful" and "capable" and nothing to do with love, compassion, and caring for others.

Of course it’s got a lot of dislikes. I can’t imagine a video criticizing Sonic games going over well with Sonic fans. He, or they, are getting dislikes not because their video or argument is in some way intrinsically bad or malicious but because they’d dare speak badly about a game people are hyped about. The same was true of people who made DmC videos defending it or arguing that it would be good. How many f%c$= you’s do you think they got in their comments section?

These guys seem to have a love of the series and are concerned of how things are going based on its history, and they aren’t wrong about a lot of things they mentioned. It’s just not the popular thing to say right now.

Really!? There are tons of videos made almost every week that criticize the Sonic series and Sonic Teams handling of it and a lot of these come from Sonic fans themselves and these tend to be rather positively viewed (unless if they're overly malicious like saying Sonic was never good). No fanbase hates and ****s on their own series more than the Sonic fanbase. Granted it and Sonic Team/SEGA deserves it.

 

[berto]

Really!? There are tons of videos made almost every week that criticize the Sonic series and Sonic Teams handling of it and a lot of these come from Sonic fans themselves and these tend to be rather positively viewed (unless if they're overly malicious like saying Sonic was never good). No fanbase hates and ****s on their own series more than the Sonic fanbase. Granted it and Sonic Team/SEGA deserves it.

Dear lord. Fine. Poor example. I don't watch Sonic videos so I don't know. Pick any fanbase who have their fingers in their ears and refuse to admit when their favorite game has any issues.

 

[KtWtWiS43]

I thought it was interesting that they didn't mention gameplay at all, which for the most part has always been phenomenal. It feels like their analysis focused more on the "creative direction" of the series. Not sure if that provides any basis to assume that DMC5 is gunna suck, but we won't know until it actually comes out I guess.

Bold move haha.

lmao at all the dislikes, but im just starting watching it so lets see if its as bad as it seems

Haha, jeez. This video is getting pulverized with dislikes.

@KtWtWiS43
So the first bit about the devs not being into it you could take or leave it. There's probably some truth to it but I don't really care enough to give it more thought.

The second bit probably could have merit but I lost interest because I have different opinions on Nero. Don't get me wrong I don't think dressing Nero as DmC Dante was a good idea. But Nero was never successful at feeling like his own man and he was a jerk before DmC Dante so I don't really think it's as bad as he does.

He does a raise a point of the game having no coherent message but I don't think the series ever had one.

That leads into the third point of Capcom not understanding the characters which have been proven true.

@Lain might like the 14-minute mark tho.

The 4th point is about Capcom's bad business practices which also have been proven true.

I basically agree with all of this. As someone who really liked DMC4 Nero, I am a little sore about the DMC5 iteration, but agree that he could've been executed better as a character in general.

And as far as bad business practices.... yeah... we've all been there before.

 

[berto]

@KtWtWiS43
Dude, with the triple posting. You can edit your comments, you know.

got a feeling the vid was made by a DmC fan, wanted revenge or be a mirror to DmC haters.

I don't think so. If anything he seems like a fan of DMC1 and 3 only. He constantly calls back to those 2 games when pinpointing when the franchise did it right and refers to Kamiya a lot. In that respect I am 100% in agreement with his statements. That is exactly where I stand with the franchise.

 

[V's patron]

@Stylish Nero
I disagree about DmC because of DmC Dante's character arc. He goes from apathetic loner to willing to be a champion for Humanity which involves some degree of affection for them. "Love" may be too strong a word but he does show empathy for them. Him, DmC Vergil, DmC Mundus all claim to care about humanity but by the end, you get the sense he is the only one that does.

@KtWtWiS43
Nero's changes just feel cosmetic and not an actual character shift but maybe the game does have one for him.

I'm surprised he didn't talk much about V or Nico.

 

[berto]

I've wanted to address this video at length but it's 20+ minutes so I have a lot to say and I've done this before so I think I'll take in strides and just go down the timeline and spread it out a bit.

Well, first of all claiming that the game isn't for anyone is completely wrong. The game is for fans and for people who liked 4. This game is trying very hard to appeal to everyone with the canon of the original, constant references to DMC1 and its media and the visual cues from DmC. This is a rather huge exaggeration or even sensationalist way to start. I know where he's coming from but it's a bit too... I don't know, it's not inflammatory, it's not like they said it to be negative nor did they say it knowing it was a lie, I think they do believe it when they say it, but I don't agree with the statement, specially the whole 'it's made by corporate robots to sell $8,000 coats.' We know what that looks like and this doesn't look like that. This looks like a more genuine endeavour, even with the microtransactions since, if you know how to do basic math, we can tell it's not that hard to play, progress in and beat the game without them. Plus, for a game that isn't for anyone it's got a lot of hype behind it so there is a definite interested audience. This is something we really won't know until the dust has settled and we've gotten our hands on it, had a chance to analyze it and see if we liked it or it was for us.

I don't think Bayonetta qualifies as indie. I understand that the point is that Bayonetta is the direct competition, specially in terms of quality gameplay and because it was made by not just the series creator but the the original staff. Bayonetta is the product of much more freedom, creative and corporate, than what DMC games have now, which, in some very real ways, are bound to what the fans demand and what corporate dictates. Bayonetta didn't have to have a style system, it didn't have to have a specific characters because the fans wouldn't buy without him/her, and since it started from scratch it didn't have to obey any preexisting canon, which doesn't say much because I agree that if you took DMC1 and compared it to DmC and DMC5 you would never guess it was the same franchise. The thing is, I don't believe that the P* staff would make a game like DMC1. The people who made DMC1 didn't all go to P*. A lot of them went elsewhere, including Shinji Mikami, who obviously gave the game its atmosphere, since it has more in common with REmake's and RE2's than any other game I've seen from Kamiya alone.

Ok, so Itsuno wanted to make DmC2 at first. Why does that equate to him having zero interest in making 5 or being completely dispassionate about making it? 4 was a game that was made with a staff that was burned out on the franchise. They just got off 3 and they put all their blood, sweat and tears into it and they were spent so if you'd said that they didn't want to make 4 I could understand and believe that, but after a 10 year gap and the chance to work on other IPs I think the staff is probably ready for more so the burned out statement doesn't seem to me as true. If we stick to simply mr. Walker and Itsuno-san then I still argue that there is no evidence of disinterest. Even if Itsuno would rather make DmC2 doesn't mean he can't inject that passion in to 5 by making it what he would have out of DmC2. He certainly seems to be having fun making chainsaw motorcycles.

By the way DmC was not a critical failure. Financial yes, but not critical, which is something I've always wanted to address at length but this isn't the time.

(To be continued)

 

[Stylish Nero]

@Stylish Nero
I disagree about DmC because of DmC Dante's character arc. He goes from apathetic loner to willing to be a champion for Humanity which involves some degree of affection for them. "Love" may be too strong a word but he does show empathy for them. Him, DmC Vergil, DmC Mundus all claim to care about humanity but by the end, you get the sense he is the only one that does.

@KtWtWiS43
Nero's changes just feel cosmetic and not an actual character shift but maybe the game does have one for him.

I'm surprised he didn't talk much about V or Nico.

I have to disagree with your disagreement...sort of. Dante based his whole role of mankind's protector on the basis of his experience with Kat. Nothing about their relationship alludes to the compassion and strong humanity and ideal qualities that makes it clear to him that humanity is worth protecting as it mainly boils down to "she got screwed by the demons like me" and later sees how regular humans who go against Tru..I mean Mundus are treated just like him and sees its his duty no one (human and even demons for he even shows some degree of compassion to even demons like Lilith and learned from Phineas not all demons are bad) are subjugated to the things he went through. There is empathy in there of course since Dante is the hero we root for but its more sympathy based on mutual experiences. But all in all its rooted in its themes of freedom and allowing choice.

Mundus probably doesn't but its unknown whether Vergil does or doesn't. It seems Dante's argument was that he feared Vergil will eventually become like Mundus. Hence the idea the road to hell paved in good intentions. Maybe he did care. Also I fail to see how someone who wants to over police people so he can keep them from harming and destroying themselves is them not caring for that person or people. Isn't that parallel to a parent who is overprotective of their own children to the point they expose more restrictions on them. While overbearing that is rooted in caring for a child and Vergil equated mankind to children. You can say misguided but to say his intentions are boiled down to not caring for humans isn't very presumptuous. Its also so weird to say Dante's care for humanity when his direct actions resulted in thousands upon thousands of human casualties. He at times were told it would but after thinking about it for a couple seconds goes on regardless and even after the aftermath just shrug it off. Yup the city got Man of Steel'd and demons with supernatural powers and razor sharp blades and bullet proof bodies are running amok potentially massacring humans out of confusion right now. Time to crack a joke and stare into the sunset with a job well done. And don't get me started on the extended ending they added to the DE.

While Mundus may not have cared for humanity his actions never led to the death of thousands and he prevented mankind from killing themselves. Mundus brought up a lot of questions and hypocrisy in Dante's philosophy in lieu of his actions that he outright never answers to anyone let alone himself by the end of the game.

But maybe I'm getting a bit off topic.

 

[BrawlMan]

Whoever the guy in the video is, I'm going to ignore him...permanently.

 

[V's patron]

@Stylish Nero
I'm cool with just agreeing to disagree.