The Snyder Cut

[berto]

THAT WAS INCREDIBLE!!!
GOD DAMN

I saw the teaser in the live stream and I am blwn the fk away. When they release it I'll post it but, holy (censored) I did not think I was going to be this overwhelmed by it.

Edit: Here it is

 

[Morgan]

Me rn.

Victooooorrrrrrrrr!!!!!! Iriiiiiiiiiiis!!!!!!!!! AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!! Now Victor can be "the heart" of the movie like he was meant to be. And it looks like Bruce really is looking at a hologram of Kara or a female Kryptonian, because those boots don't fit Kal.

Edit: Did someone say poster?

 

[ef9dante_oSsshea]

It may be 4 hours long, but my god it looks glorious

I'll gladly watch all that extra content for 4 hours

 

[berto]

It may be 4 hours long, but my god it looks glorious

I'll gladly watch all that extra content for 4 hours

Yeah, but it's going to be done in 4 parts. It might be released all at once, daily, weekly or even monthly, depending on how they want to go about it.

Edit:
Here's an detailed analysis of the trailer. Rather fascinating.

 

[Morgan]

Variety: Zack Snyder Debuts ‘Justice League’ Snyder Cut Trailer, Reveals Four Part Release Plan

Snyder said the film will be released on HBO Max in 2021 in four, one-hour segments, as well as having an option to watch it as an unbroken four-hour movie. He also said there’s work on a “distribution plan” to release the movie outside of the streaming service.

-----

Good analysis video. They caught the Joker card floating in the Hall of Justice scene. So... Joker exists (or, existed) in that timeline and it's probably still the Jared Leto version?

Zack confirmed the hologram was Supes and not Kara on Vero? No wonder. It fits, but I would've liked it to be Kara just because she might have been involved in the fight against Uxas. What footage we are seeing is still pretty intriguing, though, especially the potential reveal of Martian Manhunter. No mention of Green Lantern, but the movie being four hours long lends itself to Sam Benjamin (credited as Military Policeman #2 in the release) getting that intended 20-30 minute arc as GL after all.

The fact that all this stuff got cut only to come back in full force with a lot of fan uproar is so sad, thinking about it. It's like the movie version of FFXV's development process.

Also: Affleck is putting on the suit again for the Flash movie.

VanityFair: Ben Affleck Will Return as Batman in The Flash

He worked with Geoff Johns on the Batman movie and stepped down as director in 2017, then hung up the cowl entirely, giving us the Reeves-Pattinson version. Sounds even more like the executive level at WB was becoming an issue and hampering some projects.

 

[Steve]

I actually really enjoyed Justice League, warts and all. The Snyder Cut is looking outstanding. Thank you for sharing all of this mouth-watering media, berto and Morgan!

 

[berto]

I've been hearing a lot about the special effects not been too good looking. PS2 graphics. Here's the thing, these people are making this for $20+ mil. Snyder is working for free. It won't be what it could've been. That's just a fact of tragedy. The fact that this is happening is, in it self, an impossibility. For the stars to align like they did, as far as I known, it's unheard of. It be like getting FFvXIII or Silent Hills. Be grateful it happened at all. It won't be perfect, it can't be, not when there is so little money to make it happen. Maybe, when the movie releases and if and when it makes bank they'll up the production valew, but till then, just enjoy.

 

[Morgan]

> "PS2 graphics"

> some goober saying that with a straight face after seeing Steppenwolf in the farcical theatrical release and everything around Cyborg when Superman is revived

Did people sleep through the Josstice League cut or something?

Also, I'm still waiting on Versus XIII. Considering what Nomura pulled with Verum Rex in KHIII Re:Mind, he just needs the opportunity and Square Enix's backing. It's not like Tabata is around to, er, "save" another FF game anymore.

 

[berto]

@Morgan Well, if this succeeds, That might not be an impossibility anymore. One fallen project resurrected might lead to more.

 

[Morgan]

Heck yes. If all turns out well with the Snyder Cut, I'll take it as a sign that this timeline isn't so bad after all. See also: Sonic the Hedgehog getting redesigned before his movie came out. Earlier this year. I bet people forgot about that one.

That being said, with the way people are going against the concept of "a director realizing their intended vision for their work before they got replaced and a majority of their footage with it", one would almost think the Richard Donner cut of Superman II never existed to set a precedent. It was the same scenario: the first director has an epic, mythical style to their storytelling that's grandiose in scale, the second director doesn't gel with it because their style is lighter, quirkier, and sillier.

Source: Variety: Thank You, Fans

“I banned the Salkinds (producers-financiers) from the set [of “Superman II’] and they fired me. I had 75% of the movie taken away from me as they then hired Richard Lester to direct it. He didn’t like any of my footage so it laid in a vault all these years. But the fans knew about [the footage] and they started such a clamor, so Warners [Home Video] decided that I could re-constitute my film. Michael Thau edited and shot some new opticals. I never thought it could happen. Tens of thousands of feet of my film were found around Europe. We even used a screen test I had made with Christopher Reeve and Margot Kidder before the film started. The time lapse in their looks is obvious, but that’s O.K.”

Donner says he receives nothing for redoing his film. “But that’s O.K. All we care about is making good films and having a good time.”

 

[berto]

Sorry, Nerds, But the Snyder Cut Is Only Going To Disappoint You

You can finally watch Zack Snyder's director's cut of Justice League on HBO Max on March 18, but should you?

spy.com

I wonder if this guys salty because he kept saying that it wasn't gonna happen...

Edit:
Apparently, this isn't just this this guy. There are a lot of people being very condescending about this whole thing. It seems like these people will look at anything you show them, in regards to them, like this guy, and they might suddenly become the "adult" who finds all of this juvenile and childishly picky, as in, 'so his suit is black, who cares? This is stupid.' and even says 'hey, nerds,' as if he was better than the people he's addressing, as though he thinks himself a jock, when, in reality, if they didn't get it they wouldn't care enough to go out of their way to comment on it.

 

[Morgan]

That writer sounds so unhappy, and I'd say I wish him well in life, but I don't. He's the exact type of person who thinks they're enlightened but he's pretty much just saying a wordier version of "Get woke, go broke", because he's already determined that Snyder Cut fans are A Certain Type Of Way therefore making the fans Acceptable Targets for any leftover vitriol he held over from high school instead of letting the work speak for itself as to its strengths and weaknesses when it actually comes out.

I mean, I guess people like him totally accepted Flash falling onto Wonder Woman's breasts, the "Lois is thirsty" joke, and the camera ogling Diana's ass just because Joss Whedon Identifies As A Feminist so Nothing He Does is Wrong (and his low-key racism is just the price of admission to own the "bad nerds"), while they prejudge Zack as Appealing To A Fanbase They Don't Like so Everything He Does Is Wrong.

I mean, Scott Mendelson among other people tried to act like an idiot on Twitter asking if the Snyder Cut was an extended cut of Joss Whedon's JL theatrical run, implying that the Snyder Cut isn't worth the money for "a few scenes directed differently", when his article on Justice League's theatrical run said, no word of a lie,

If Man of Steel was a sci-fi first contact drama, Wonder Woman was a myth and Batman v Superman was an opera, then Justice League plays like a Saturday morning cartoon. That’s not necessarily a criticism, and it is better than the Justice League pilot episodes (“Secret Origins”) and the 2014 DCAU movie Justice League: War. But I would argue that the best viewing experience would be in a packed Saturday matinee, preferably with everyone still in their pajamas (a bowl of cereal is optional).

BUT he totally claims to be a neutral, unbiased fan of Snyder's work, while somehow missing the part where Snyder said he'd set his whole movie on fire if he used a scene he didn't personally direct himself. And there being a 214-minute reel. Even ScreenRant had evidence that we didn't see as much of Snyder's film in JLthan Warner Bros claimed at the time.

There seems to be a specific brand of journalist that's effectively mad that fans aren't a hive mind that blindly consumes product in ignorance of corporate missteps and office politics, at the expense of the individuals that worked hard to bring about their vision as intended.

 

[berto]

It seems that the song he used in the trailer was apparently his daughter’s favorite song, even played during her funeral.

 

[Morgan]

Damn. Jay Oliva did say it was "important to [Zack's] memory of his daughter". Given what happened, that should be all the detail anyone needs to know about the song choice. Too many people are calling him pretentious and "cliche" over it when they probably wouldn't even remember that it was in Shrek (a different rendition) and only remember it from Watchmen.

 

[berto]

Too many people are calling him pretentious and "cliche" over it

Cliche implies an archetype that's been used so much it's gone passed the norm into overused. How is the use of this song cliche? Is it the ideas behind the song? Is it an overused song? Why or how is it cliche? As for pretentious. Yeah, they've been saying that since MoS because of all the parallels to Jesus but in this case I'm assuming they're implying that he's not this artist he's pretending to be, presenting a deep or philosophical narrative when it's neither or. To that I say, who cares? Why must everything be taken at the most negative? If it's not something you enjoy walk away from it. It's so juvenile to try to drag something down before you even have a chance to see it. Concerns are one thing, even disinterest and a sense of 'it's not for me' but immediate dismissal and condescendance just to tear something or someone down because, I'm assuming, you don't like them is childish.

I know there are situations where this is justified but we are working under the assumptions that they are. For one, most of the ones I've seen try to use the argument 'didn't you see BvS?' as though it were some argument over the quality of the director but if that's the basis of your argument none of it rings true with me because I liked his previous movies. I won't pretend BvS was perfect because I take issue with a lot of the elements in the movie, but when people try to pass it as evidence of what we'd be getting, well, to me it's screaming at me 'is this what you want!? Because this is what awaits you if you keep at it' while shoving a lot of money in my face.

 

[Morgan]

> disliking MoS because "Parallels to Jesus"
> some goober saying that with a straight face after Smallville Season 9 finale AND Superman Returns

The mere concept of Jor-El sending "his only son" to Earth so that he can guide humans to the light and in turn being raised by a mom whose name starts with "Mar" (Mar-y, Mar-tha) and a dad whose name starts with "Jo" (Jo-seph, Jo-nathan, also Jonathan's middle name is literally Joseph) wasn't something Zack invented, so these weirdos are just proving they don't actually engage with media beyond directing their gripes at the target du jour. That's pathetic.

BvS was watchable in its Ultimate Edition and I found it satisfied a lot of gripes people had with the theatrical release, but blaming Snyder for that too and not recognizing the dysfunction in WB at the executive level and also blaming Snyder for not being a Marvel-like director is just asinine. See also: criticizing Batman for killing criminals in BvS but turning a blind eye to the whole Christopher Nolan trilogy, in which the second film features Batman shooting "rubber bullets" at cars that cause them to explode, and absolutely killed a garbage truck driver during the chase with the Tumbler.

There's a level of double standard when it comes to Zack and other directors, where if he's too subtle people don't get it, and if he's too on-the-nose he gets criticized for it, but other directors get away with being as """pretentious""" or surface level as they please, to no comment. It's turned into a meme. The guy just wants to make good comic book movies (or graphic-novel-based movies) that remember they come from comic books in their varied retellings and changes in tone. Todd Phillips was onto something when he made Joker inspired by The Taxi Driver and countered criticisms with "We didn't make the movie to push buttons. [I told Joaquin,] 'Look at this as a way to sneak a real movie in the studio system under the guise of a comic book film.' Let's make a real movie with a real budget and call it Joker."

Plenty of self-important or shallow directors exist but the magnifying glass is held over the "comic book genre" and underneath the sun because people see "comic book movies" as inherently beneath them and Appealing To The Wrong People [fanwise] or otherwise Attractive To The Wrong People [creator-wise].

 

[V's patron]

If Snyder had to come back and do another DC Film, I'd want him to adapt this movie instead. It was one of my favorite DTVs and I wish that world continued on.

Sorry off topic.

Honestly I'm neutral to Snyder's Justice League as I didn't think Steppenwolf and the Parademons was an interesting threat. I would've preffered the Legion of Doom or the Syndicate of Earth 3 personally. But the trailer is pretty sweet so I'll give it a shot someday as I don't have HBOmax.

 

[Morgan]

Steppenwolf and the Parademons (that's gonna have to be a band name if it's not already) weren't threatening thanks to Whedon. The opening scene of Batman interrogating a criminal to find out that Parademons are "attracted to fear" is entirely a Whedon invention and required a change in Steppenwolf's design to "make him more expressive" thus setting him up entirely for the underwhelming defeat at the end where he gets a little shook and the Parademons turn on him.

I guess Wonder Woman beheading Steppenwolf was too hardcore.

Anyway, his design is fixed to make him more threatening. Like he should be. And he's a herald to Darkseid anyway so he won't need to speak much if at all.

 

[berto]

In terms of appearance, the first time I saw Steppenwolf, a name with a very rich history, mind you, I thought he was downright demonic. There was an almost supernatural element to that scene in the ship, and even the name of the scene, Communion, implies a religious, divine, undertone. Threatening is putting it mildly. The whole presentation was something very much not present in the theatrical cut. For the record, I don't blame Wheedon for how things turned out. When you see the footage without the context for a lot of these scenes I can see how it would cause a confusion. It couldn't have been an easy thing, to be in that position. Be that as it may, I wonder how much this affected the future of the franchise. Both Ben Affleck and Henry Cavill called it quits after this for varying reasons. It might've affected them more than we're led on.

Also, just to flex a bit, the band Steppenwolf got its name from a mid 20th century novel of the same name, by Hermann Hesse about an old man named Harry and it chronicles his time with a young woman named Hermine who is teaching him to be young. The name Steppenwolf, the wolf of the steppes, refers to a piece of literature he got from a street vendor referring to him. It's an abstract work and not an easy one to summarize, but it is an iconic work and I'm pretty sure it's the origins of the name.

I keep forgetting to talk about Nietzsche in regards to MoS. You see, Nietzsche wrote a novel with a few different translations to the name but it's basically called Thus Spoke Zarathustra. Zarathustra, whose name I have to google every f*****ng time, was a man who left his home at age 30 to live in the mountains to find wisdom. After 10 years he found the answer and decided to share it with the world. The first person he met was an old man, a hermit, who lived in the woods near the mountain. Zarathustra told the old man of how he would share his wisdom with the world but the old man warned him that his gift would not be received kindly. Zarathustra finally makes it to civilization and there, during a festival, he finds the opportunity to speak to a broad audience.

While a crowd was waiting for a tightrope walker he starts to talk to the crowd about this truth he found. He tells them that the road to salvation is not in the church but in self actualization. That humanity must set goals for itself and each individual must strive for self cultivation. In fact, this is one of the places you will find Nietzsche's famous line 'god is dead.' The crowd, thinking he was the performer, turns on him and Zarathustra is reminded of what the old man told him. The people he hoped to save don't take kindly to his preaching.

The ideas that Nietzsche presents in this story are the basis for his thoughts on self actualization, how one overcomes themselves. He called those who achieved this Übermensch, something else I had to google to spell, but translates to the beyond man, which at times has also called the overman, but is more widely known as the superman.

All these themes can be seen in the personal journey that Superman takes in both MoS and BvS. The journey to find oneself, how his attempt to help the world is met with suspicion and even contempt, the death of god. Of course, I'm taking some stuff out of context here. The death of god is now the actual death of god but rather a notion that god is a moral compass but once people no longer try to learn from him, no longer follow his moral guidance, the closer they are to follow nihilism and so Nietzsche is trying to offer a new idea to strive for, the superman, as a new goal. Anyway, the parallels are there and I always found them interesting. If intentional it serves as an fascinating allegorical parallel. If coincidental then it's a fascinating coincidence.

 

[Morgan]

For the record, I don't blame Whedon for how things turned out. When you see the footage without the context for a lot of these scenes I can see how it would cause a confusion. It couldn't have been an easy thing, to be in that position. Be that as it may, I wonder how much this affected the future of the franchise. Both Ben Affleck and Henry Cavill called it quits after this for varying reasons. It might've affected them more than we're led on.

You don't? Oh, good, that means I get to do it instead! This isn't to say that there wasn't mismanagement on the executive level (i.e. Geoff Johns, Kevin Tsujihara, Jon Berg), but the extent to which Whedon participated in what was more or less office politics and Anti-Snyder drama on top of his own bad behavior is palpable. I don't doubt it's hard to step in after a director leaves for personal reasons, and you have to fill in and do their job. I bet it's difficult. Doesn't excuse bad behavior and disrespecting the director and his colleagues, though!

Kevin Smith: “Remember when I went to the [Rise of Skywalker] set and some people had worked on both Solo and Justice League? The special effects guy said there was a fair amount of trash-talking of Zack’s version of the movie on-set by Joss. Again, this is what a special effects guy who worked on both versions of the movie told me. [Whedon] would cut down, dismiss, and be negative about Zack’s version, which he had seen and all these people had made together without him and stuff.” ... “The guy had said he was kind of uncomfortable on-set because the people [Whedon] was talking to about not liking that version of the movie were all people that had helped make that version of the movie, so that I think is probably the unprofessional thing. Like you don’t do that, especially if you came in to help out during a bad moment in the director’s life and stuff. But that’s hearsay.”

According to Smith this is "hearsay", but there are stories out there about Whedon being disparaging about others' writing (tossing out Zak Penn's script) or their opinions (people who didn't like his Wonder Woman script from 2006 weren't "seeing the big picture", according to him) or getting incredibly angry with crew and cast over one thing or another as soon as things get out of his control, so this story falls in line with the others.

Whedon had one job to do: get the movie done on time with a two hour runtime. Writing "80 new script pages" wasn't necessary. Throwing out "90% of Snyder's footage" wasn't necessary. Reportedly disparaging Snyder's cut also wasn't necessary and seems a little too deliberate for someone that had their hands tied from on high and just wanted to honor Snyder's vision himself, even if he did initially approach Johns and Berg about making Batgirl (why her? why not Nightwing?) with them and Johns saw an opportunity to have him rewrite Justice League. Snyder's 214-minute reel still existed, the post-picture lock work was done, Gal Gadot (among others) completed ADR, color grading was already done by then. If the footage hadn't reached some level of completion, there'd be substantially less than 90% of it to toss out and there would have been nothing for Jason Momoa to watch and vouch for the existence of if it couldn't be made sense of as-is. People aside from Whedon watched Snyder's existing cut and made sense of it. I'm sure he could have done the same.

If there was a metaphorical gun put to Whedon's head that forced him to remove so much footage and reportedly be unprofessional to the crew, he's welcome to say it, considering he was quick to use that "gun to the head" line to say that Marvel executives and their excessive control over his work was why he burnt out on Age of Ultron and it turned out as underwhelming as it did. "I respect these guys, they're artists, but that's when it got really, really unpleasant." He had no problem portraying himself as a "Victim of Executive Meddling". Is it only bad when it happens to him, or something?

Like, sure, maybe Whedon could get away with reshoots that left Atom II and Green Lantern on the cutting room floor, but removing Cyborg's subplot? After he was said to be the heart of the movie? Removing Flash rescuing Iris, and instead doubling down on Barry's nerd fanboyism and how he has no fighting skill? These characters were set up in BvS; keeping scenes that would endear the audience to them while reinforcing their best aspects would be the right course of action. And Cal Swanwick was already in MoS + BvS, so the payoff of him being J'onn J'onzz the whole time would reward those who watched the previous films and had theories as to why he acted the way he did in them. Not to mention the symbolism in "Kal" standing within "Cal's" reflection during the interrogation sequence in MoS. The best type of fanservice is towards the people who paid attention, not the ones that can't keep their eyes on the screen unless you throw boobs, sex jokes, or blood, and altering the work to appease people who would never watch the media anyway because they consider it beneath them is beyond compromise; it shows a lack of respect, self- or otherwise.

For all the criticism of "tone" and how many people want to push this narrative of Zack Snyder doesn't understand the fundamentals of his characters and he makes them too dour, and also Joss Whedon saved Justice League (because "fans" want to be precious about Superman, and Snyder doesn't adhere to the Christopher Reeve nostalgia that seems to have gripped people all of a sudden), here are some general questions that likely weren't considered by people attempting to "fix" Snyder's JL for the theatrical release in 2017.

How does Barry being a typical Whedonesque Nerd With No Fighting Skills show understanding of him as a character and adhere to his fundamentals? Why keep the Johns retcon of Murdered Nora Allen as a part of his backstory, over him being heroic and rescuing Iris? Murdered Nora is what makes Barry depressive and does not lighten the tone of the film. They know what Barry was like pre-Johns, don't they? He's the square-jawed vaguely Protestant everyman who does the right thing because it's right, in a world where everyone else is saddled with Tragic Backstory baggage to explain why they're heroic. Barry wasn't born with powers but he would still be a hero even if he never got them. Was it too hard to square that righteous personality with the fact that New Barry is Jewish, or something?

How does removing Cyborg's interactions with his dad and scenes of who he was pre-accident show understanding of him as a character, adhere to fundamentals, or lighten the tone? He was as underutilized in the comics when he was made a founding JL member by Johns. He either brooded about being half-robot or he was glorified IT. And then in the movie he's.... brooding about being half-robot or being glorified IT, or he's Aquaman's airplane, or.... I mean, Vic was a jock in his recent past life, I'm sure he could have been written to have a bit of trash talk and funny moments but instead he was entirely humorless. Can anyone recall any lighthearted Cyborg scene in the theatrical release that didn't involve Flash or Superman? They could have achieved giving him a sense of humor without a single "Booyah", see: Smallville. Lee Thompson Young's Cyborg had great banter with that continuity's League.

How does removing Ryan Choi show understanding of him as a character? In comics, Choi was murdered during the Brightest Day crossover run even though everything about BD was supposed to "lighten the tone" around DC comics at the time. His entire arc revolved around Ray Palmer being his idol and he didn't have much else to do outside of being Atom II. Even the act of Ryan being killed was meant to prop up Ray Palmer as the Greatest Atom, Ryan never showed up again in New 52, and when he was revived in Rebirth he was... looking for Ray Palmer. And then there wasn't a shred of Choi in the film. So I guess if he's not riding Palmer's nuts he's not worth having around? Ever?

How does removing Green Lantern's setup show understanding of him as a character? Snyder already established Christina Wren's character as "Carrie Ferris" across MoS and BvS, especially with the bit of her having a thing for Supes -- strong-jawed flying men happen to be her type, making it likely that Sam Benjamin was intended to be Hal Jordan. They could've written him with more comedic scenes with Ferris even if he wasn't GL, but they threw that whole thing out.

Those changes don't make me think anyone was invested in "understanding the characters" or "lightening the tone" more than they were in getting rid of Snyder and scapegoating him because Superman snapped a neck and didn't politely ask Zod to move the fight out of Metropolis. Appeasing the critics who say that Superman didn't save anyone is absolutely the right thing to do. Sarcasm intended.

Zack was hired by WB/DC with Watchmen, 300, Dawn of the Dead, and Sucker Punch under his belt. It's not like he sprung his vision onto everyone out of nowhere. WB and DC have been "darker than Marvel" for years before these recent movies in every way they could find. Marvel didn't cross over their property with the infamously gory Mortal Kombat series for a videogame, that was DC. The Injustice series isn't a Marvel invention, that's WB. Did Marvel chase Winter Soldier money and ground their movies because the Russos made the Cap movie a hit? No, that's DC chasing Nolan/TDK money. Is Kevin Feige or someone similar constantly pushing for character deaths, shock value stories with dysfunctional heroes for the sake of having them, and showing clear favoritism on which Marvel characters are killed off or not based on his nostalgic personal preferences? Not that I know of, that was Dan DiDio over in DC doing that, and even in Marvel, massive missteps like Speedball turning into Penance, or everything around HydraCap are the fault of someone like Mark Millar or Nick Spencer pitching the idea up and then promptly got made fun of later on. The "gritty" take DC acts like they never intended was in motion long before Snyder was on board to do MoS, and all he's done for them is MoS and BvS.

So they hired a "Marvel director" who didn't like Marvel's control over him and expected him to turn a DC movie into a Marvel movie. Except it's bad. Because there's a reason why Marvel movies don't have Joss Whedon anymore and why they don't adhere to his tropes. Adding in a "Lois is thirsty" joke didn't help the film. The scene after Clark's resurrection where Lois hugs him and says he smells nice didn't help the film (compare: Age of Ultron, "I can feel the difference"). A camera shot focusing on Wonder Woman's ass didn't help the film (compare: the foot fetish seen in Avengers and his 2006 Wonder Woman script). Aquaman having a sappy moment while accidentally sitting on the Lasso of Truth didn't help the film. Flash pratfalling on Wonder Woman's boobs didn't help the film (compare: Bruce Banner doing the same with Black Widow in AoU). Bruce castigating Diana by bringing up Steve Trevor (as if he should know or care who that guy is?) didn't help the film (compare: the 2006 script where Steve took Diana to task over her naivete, or Cap and Tony butting heads).

Most importantly, adding the Russian family during the final battle didn't help the film. Whedon loves to split the big action with smaller sequences where the heroes stop what they're doing to save regular people. Except he struggled with adding "civilians on the ground" scenes in Avengers during the Battle of New York. He made Sokovia one big "civilians on the ground" setpiece for Age of Ultron as well as the Johannesburg thing with the Hulk at the start of the film. And that's literally the only times that trope has happened in Marvel.

He learned that what he thought about audiences loving that trope was wrong. -- "The only stuff we shot that really wasn’t useful was stuff I shot. I shot probably three days in both films tracking civilians, because I was like, These guys have superpowers, then they’re the Avengers. Nobody’s going to worry about them. The audience is going to want to know these civilians better. And the answer was always like, No they don’t. No they f#cking don’t..”

The audience wanted it so little that every Marvel movie with a big battle after that specifically avoided that trope. The Civil War airport and Siberia fights weren't in populated areas. The fight in Infinity War against the Black Order didn't split from the action to show "civilians on the ground". The battle at Wakanda evacuated all of the citizens and Titan was a dead planet. Endgame happens at the ruined Avengers compound and not a city. No one likes that trope. Whedon shoved the trope into Justice League thinking people will care about the family and, well, the audience still "f#cking don't". It was a single Russian family in an otherwise unpopulated area. Except for the whole building full of people that Supes flies by with no problem, even though we didn't know those people existed to form a connection with them until they showed up on screen. "What Russian Family," indeed.

(But again, Snyder catches flak over MoS "being dark" even though Supes saves a bunch of civilians, and Superman destroying the World Engine had bits in between where Perry and one of his staff saved Jenny. Come to think about it, did Perry White, who just happened to be played by Laurence Fishburne, appear for a single second in Justice League? Huh...)

I don't consider Whedon's hands that tied when it came to writing the script to complete Justice League. After his experience with Marvel Studios and Age of Ultron, he should have known better than to do the same as usual when he could have either stepped away and found work elsewhere, or otherwise kept his head down and mouth shut and did his job, but he's all about outspoken mediocrity, nerd ego, and generally unprofessional behavior, so it really isn't surprising. He doesn't need extenuating circumstances for it; it's just a thing he does and gets away with because other people have been civil with him about his bull and at the time they'd be more interested in doing their work than pulling him aside and setting his head straight.

But enough about Joss.

Has anyone watched a video of Snyder skateboarding around the House of El set?