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Thoughts on Vergil after seeing VD.

FuN Batman

Member
Yeah it happened that way in the manga: http://www.mangahere.com/manga/berserk/

Dude, I know everything about Berserk. You do not want to escalate.
Me to for the most part. I was talking about this.

http://berserk.wikia.com/wiki/Berserk:_The_Prototype

The anime was definitely not canon.

(btw just a small edit: I read that chapter again, and you are indeed correct, the manga is the canon one but there is a retelling of that chapter somewhere along the middle. I own every single chapter and all the concept art so I could scan through it on my computer, but it's really a pain in the ass. Just know that there are details in the first chapter that are left out for later retelling.)
 

ChaserTech

Well-known Member
*spoilers, you have been warned*




After seeing the cutscenes for VD, I gotta admit that I was really disappointed in the actual story on Vergil's downfall for gaining his power.

1) Where was he transported to? You'd think he would be transported in Limbo, but Limbo has already been collasped into the real world. So my only guess that he's in some form of Hell seeing how Eva is also there as well. (Which imo, doesn't make any sense).


2) How did killing hollow Dante, hollow Kat, and himself in his hollow form, unlock his true power? Most importantly, where did these hollow forms even come from? And why was hollow Vergil helping him out in the first place? And didn't Vergil already unlock his Doppelganger against Dante? Yet you gain this skill after Vergil defeats his hollow form and unlocks his "true power".

I don't get it at all. It sounds like the devs just threw this together for the sake of Vergil's story.


3) After gaining this new-found power . . . he becomes powerful enough to control demons?

....Why?
 

darkmanifest

Unleash the blood
*spoilers, you have been warned*

After seeing the cutscenes for VD, I gotta admit that I was really disappointed in the actual story on Vergil's downfall for gaining his power.

1) Where was he transported to? You'd think he would be transported in Limbo, but Limbo has already been collasped into the real world. So my only guess that he's in some form of Hell seeing how Eva is also there as well. (Which imo, doesn't make any sense).

2) How did killing hollow Dante, hollow Kat, and himself in his hollow form, unlock his true power? Most importantly, where did these hollow forms even come from? And why was hollow Vergil helping him out in the first place? And didn't Vergil already unlock his Doppelganger against Dante? Yet you gain this skill after Vergil defeats his hollow form and unlocks his "true power".

I don't get it at all. It sounds like the devs just threw this together for the sake of Vergil's story.

3) After gaining this new-found power . . . he becomes powerful enough to control demons?

....Why?


What I got from it (elaborate theory ahead, folks): I'm willing to bet the entirety of the DLC takes place in Vergil's mind. He uses the portal to get to mother's grave and collapses on it on the verge of death. And then he goes through a journey through his own soul. You remember that place with the giant statue in chains that Dante "went" to whenever he gained a new Nephilim power, and once he finally unlocked his trigger, he stopped going there? Vergil spends the entire DLC in a severely twisted version of that place, falling apart because he's losing his mind. It looks like Hell because it's a reflection of his pain, both physical and mental (represented by the beating heart, wounded in real life and wounded metaphorically by Dante's betrayal). He probably already went through it one time before just like Dante did, and is forced to go through it again because he's dying and his body is restructuring itself. (Sort of harkening back to DMC!Dante needing to basically die and resurrect to unlock his trigger).

Dante and Kat are just hallucinations, reflections of Vergil's own insecurities that he has to defeat to gain confidence in himself again. He could have confronted his doubts and reached positive self-realization and increased his power that way (like Dante did), but chose instead to crawl deeper into his own rage, resentment, and delusion, which Hollow!Vergil kept feeding to him, because hollow!Vergil represents everything Vergil thinks he needs to become (actually, it's everything Vergil needs to overcome, but that's where Vergil goes terribly wrong.)

As for Eva, remember when Dante spoke to her spirit in DmC, and she left him once he achieved his full potential? Apparently, like in the original DMC, her soul is tied to the amulets. Eva's not a hallucination, and she's not trapped in Limbo or Hell, she's trapped in Vergil's own internal madness, and she can't be free until HE'S free, because he's using HER amulet to attain this power of his. And she can't reach him anymore, so her spirit's stuck in the depths of his insanity until he's not Hannibal Lector anymore.

So when Vergil wakes up at the end, in the real world, he's healed himself and he has an even better grasp on his power than he did before; he's given in to his demon side entirely and all the power associated with it (unlike Dante, who was still fighting against it at the end of DmC). And the demons, masterless, trapped in the human world, and looking for someone with the power to lead them, recognize that in him immediately. So he becomes their new boss.

(And Dante is an idiot who could have avoided this whole mess with a little diplomacy and maybe not trying to murder his brother, but noooo. So now Vergil's a crazy demon messiah twice as powerful as he was before and he's gathering an army that's going to smear Dante all over the sidewalk like a dung beetle.)

I liked it a lot, actually. It demonstrated metaphor and the hero's struggle a lot better than DmC did, though it could have been more complex (seriously, Vergil, your mother's "favorite"? Really? Are you twelve?) It also made me sympathize with the main character more. Vergil's a twit, but it's shown to us why he's so messed up in the head, and also why it's his own damn fault, so I felt bad for him without feeling he was justified. Never got that sense of flawed humanity with Dante.

But that Super Saiyan hair was stupid. So stupid. He looked like a troll doll.
 

Loopy

Devil hunter in training
*spoilers, you have been warned*




After seeing the cutscenes for VD, I gotta admit that I was really disappointed in the actual story on Vergil's downfall for gaining his power.

1) Where was he transported to? You'd think he would be transported in Limbo, but Limbo has already been collasped into the real world. So my only guess that he's in some form of Hell seeing how Eva is also there as well. (Which imo, doesn't make any sense).I think it is hell. Maybe Eva is there because of how she died? She had her heart taken, and Vergil's got a gaping wound where his was.:/


2) How did killing hollow Dante, hollow Kat, and himself in his hollow form, unlock his true power? Most importantly, where did these hollow forms even come from? And why was hollow Vergil helping him out in the first place? And didn't Vergil already unlock his Doppelganger against Dante? Yet you gain this skill after Vergil defeats his hollow form and unlocks his "true power".It helped him unlock his power because he figuratively killed the 'weak part' that was holding him back from doing what it takes to get power; his feelings for Kat and the feeling that Dante was the favourite, coupled wih his disbelief of Dante turning on him and beat him. Then there's proving to Eva that he was the stronger child by showing he killed Dante, then throwing everything she gave him back in her face to pove he no longer needed her. Those negative feelings about himself wer eholding him back.
Each time he did this, a wound in his heart was fixed until it was whole again.

Hollow Vergil was helping him because he's the demon side of Vergil. It wanted to take over completely and to do that it had to make Vergil lose anything that would hold him back. He wasn't helping him. It was a bit to take over, but Vergil was stronger.

He already dad the doppelganger skill, but Vergil was holding the other half in check, making sure it did not take over completely. When Vergil went to hell, the doppelganger broke free as it is the physical form of his demon side. It saw its chance when Vergil was wounded to escape and try to gain dominance.

I don't get it at all. It sounds like the devs just threw this together for the sake of Vergil's story.


3) After gaining this new-found power . . . he becomes powerful enough to control demons?
Maybe he always was? Or that he gave up his 'human' qualities and embraced his demon and let it become the dominant side over the angel. I guess the demons recognised him as strong and decided he was the new leader?

....Why?
 

Romy

Well-known Member
*spoilers, you have been warned*




After seeing the cutscenes for VD, I gotta admit that I was really disappointed in the actual story on Vergil's downfall for gaining his power.

1) Where was he transported to? You'd think he would be transported in Limbo, but Limbo has already been collasped into the real world. So my only guess that he's in some form of Hell seeing how Eva is also there as well. (Which imo, doesn't make any sense).


2) How did killing hollow Dante, hollow Kat, and himself in his hollow form, unlock his true power? Most importantly, where did these hollow forms even come from? And why was hollow Vergil helping him out in the first place? And didn't Vergil already unlock his Doppelganger against Dante? Yet you gain this skill after Vergil defeats his hollow form and unlocks his "true power".

I don't get it at all. It sounds like the devs just threw this together for the sake of Vergil's story.


3) After gaining this new-found power . . . he becomes powerful enough to control demons?

....Why?

1. I'm also guessing Hell because Limbo doesn't make sense, but then again, yeah, like you said, Eva is there. What would Eva be doing in Hell? But like always Capcom/NT left many things to speculations. If I had to elaborate it for myself, I'd say that making demon/angel hybrids is prohibited on the strongest level and that's why she went to Hell.

2. All of VD was practically in his head. He was fighting with his conscience. He collapses on some grave and in the end, he wakes up there. Though, I'm not really sure you could awaken new powers from sleeping and fighting things psychologically in your head, but again, we're left to explain things in our own way. Sucks.

3. Sure, why not? Mundus was the one before him and since he was defeated, no one was controlling them. Demons recognized his powers and accepted him as the new ruler. That's what he wanted anyway. Why? Well, because he suffers from a huge inferiority complex caused by his brother and the absence of attention he wanted from his mother while he was a kid (which probably isn't true).


But that Super Saiyan hair was stupid. So stupid. He looked like a troll doll.


I agree with everything you said but this. His hair is the memento of the old Vergil and the messy/spiky look is kind of a sign of anger, hate and similar emotions. The corrupted look is the best thing about new Vergil.
 

Jane Sweetbee

Well-known Member
I think the main reason is Dante did kill him. He soul was then in a real limbo. He has no other way to escape the death except fully embracing the darkness. Because he was wounded, his humanity was so weak that cannot resist his darkness any more. Finally, his darkness absorbs his humanity, turning him into a real demon. VD's storyline is legit.
To be honest, i feel Dante was brutal. I don't see he has a good personality.
 

Ether0

Nephilim Lover
[quote="FuN Batman, post: 452676, member: 25041!

You couldn't be more wrong. Guts was a quiet little boy who only wanted a father figure and fought for Gambino to be acknowledged. He was a fierce fighter and the most complex personality in the story but he was never cruel. He fought to hone his abilities and nothing more. Guts became extremely disciplined later on in the series and I sure as **** hope you're not talking about the noncanon anime.

Couple questions. If guts wasn't violent, Cold and cruel. what was the Black Swordsman and Retribution arcs about? And what does Hellhound represent?

2. The 26 episode anime is based on the golden age arc, and everything that happened in the anime, happened in the Manga. Kentaro Muira was on staff, and they used some of the manga's pages as storyboards. How is it not canon

3.Um, hate to inform you, but there have been 332 chapters of Berserk for a while. Chapter 332 came out two months ago, and chapter 328-331 came out last year. When'd you stop reading

4. If DMC3 wasn't about Dante's journey to becoming the hero he was in 1, why was it called "Dante's awakening?" And why did it show Dante slowly transforming from a cocky party animal into the fun-loving, and stil serious, demon slayer from 1?

5. I'm not the only person in the world who thinks DMC3 Dante was a asshole. From the DevilMayCry Tvtropes page under Flanderization: The later games just make him a Jerkass.

6: Dante in three seems to live in the moment, not caring about tomorrow. A hedonist is described as " a desire to be happy and experience various kinds of pleasure." DMC3 Dante did that with (off-screen) drinking and (on-screen) fighting. DmC Dante does the same with (on-screen) drinking, fighting and (off-screen) sex. Until they both matured and became what they were meant to be. They even have similar identity crisis, although the original Dante downplayed it with taunting and snark. Compare these two lines.

DMC3:
"(when being asked if he was human) Who knows? I'm not even sure myself."

DmC:

"I don't know what I am anymore"[/quote]
Why are you even trying lol
 

White Angel

Well-known Member
I've just a question.....
After what we can see in Vergil's Downfall you think that the comic book will be considered canonical?I mean...I didn't see anything about his love for Kat in the DLC, it was just her saying him that he was a as*****e and stop.

For the rest I'm quite disapponted...I don't know you but I expected more from NT with this DLC.
 

Romy

Well-known Member
For the rest I'm quite disapponted...I don't know you but I expected more from NT with this DLC.

What more could you expect? It showed exactly how he ended up on the wrong path.To me, the end of this DLC is the beginning of DMC3. If there will ever be DmC2, Vergil's gonna make his move on Dante now that he's strong as hell.
 

Rayl

Pain and pleasure... I've got it all.
It can't lead into DMC3 because DMC3 ends with Vergil back in the demon realm facing down Mundus who in DmC canon is dead and neither Vergil or Mundus have met before.

Unless we're toying with the idea that there are different Mundus's running around that is.
 

Macabre

Your Friend and Mine
It can't lead into DMC3 because DMC3 ends with Vergil back in the demon realm facing down Mundus who in DmC canon is dead and neither Vergil or Mundus have met before.

Unless we're toying with the idea that there are different Mundus's running around that is.

What would even be the plural for that? Mundasees, Mundasi, Mundanes...?
 

Romy

Well-known Member
Of course it eon't lead directly into DMC3, it's another story. I meant along the lines of DMC3, as in Vergil making his move.
 

Loopy

Devil hunter in training
It can't lead into DMC3 because DMC3 ends with Vergil back in the demon realm facing down Mundus who in DmC canon is dead and neither Vergil or Mundus have met before.

Unless we're toying with the idea that there are different Mundus's running around that is.
You're right that it couldn't lead into an exact DMC3, but DmC2 could have elements of DMC3 in it like Arkham and Lady or the demon tower, and certainly upping the rivalry between Dante and Vergil.

As for Mundus being dead in DmC, I'm not sure that he is, especially with what happened to Eva. The body Mundus was using was a vessel, so I have a feeling his demon body is in storage in hell. What if Mundus' soul was released from Ryder's body during the defeat and found its way back to hell and to Mundus' true demon body?
 

Ether0

Nephilim Lover
You're right that it couldn't lead into an exact DMC3, but DmC2 could have elements of DMC3 in it like Arkham and Lady or the demon tower, and certainly upping the rivalry between Dante and Vergil.

As for Mundus being dead in DmC, I'm not sure that he is, especially with what happened to Eva. The body Mundus was using was a vessel, so I have a feeling his demon body is in storage in hell. What if Mundus' soul was released from Ryder's body during the defeat and found its way back to hell and to Mundus' true demon body?
I don't know about all of that, I think they should let Mundus die and use a different villain if they have one besides Vergil. Otherwise with the whole two bodies and traveling souls kinda thing, makes me think of Kingdom Hearts. NT should keep it simple and not get trapped in their own lore.
 

Rayl

Pain and pleasure... I've got it all.
I don't know about all of that, I think they should let Mundus die and use a different villain if they have one besides Vergil. Otherwise with the whole two bodies and traveling souls kinda thing, makes me think of Kingdom Hearts. NT should keep it simple and not get trapped in their own lore.

Here are your choices:


and

tumblr_m78q7zURAz1r7nxijo1_500.jpg

"THE SAVIOUR IS COMING" X500 Mega Pope.
 

Sissi146

Well-known Member
What I got from it (elaborate theory ahead, folks): I'm willing to bet the entirety of the DLC takes place in Vergil's mind. He uses the portal to get to mother's grave and collapses on it on the verge of death. And then he goes through a journey through his own soul. You remember that place with the giant statue in chains that Dante "went" to whenever he gained a new Nephilim power, and once he finally unlocked his trigger, he stopped going there? Vergil spends the entire DLC in a severely twisted version of that place, falling apart because he's losing his mind. It looks like Hell because it's a reflection of his pain, both physical and mental (represented by the beating heart, wounded in real life and wounded metaphorically by Dante's betrayal). He probably already went through it one time before just like Dante did, and is forced to go through it again because he's dying and his body is restructuring itself. (Sort of harkening back to DMC!Dante needing to basically die and resurrect to unlock his trigger).

Dante and Kat are just hallucinations, reflections of Vergil's own insecurities that he has to defeat to gain confidence in himself again. He could have confronted his doubts and reached positive self-realization and increased his power that way (like Dante did), but chose instead to crawl deeper into his own rage, resentment, and delusion, which Hollow!Vergil kept feeding to him, because hollow!Vergil represents everything Vergil thinks he needs to become (actually, it's everything Vergil needs to overcome, but that's where Vergil goes terribly wrong.)

As for Eva, remember when Dante spoke to her spirit in DmC, and she left him once he achieved his full potential? Apparently, like in the original DMC, her soul is tied to the amulets. Eva's not a hallucination, and she's not trapped in Limbo or Hell, she's trapped in Vergil's own internal madness, and she can't be free until HE'S free, because he's using HER amulet to attain this power of his. And she can't reach him anymore, so her spirit's stuck in the depths of his insanity until he's not Hannibal Lector anymore.

So when Vergil wakes up at the end, in the real world, he's healed himself and he has an even better grasp on his power than he did before; he's given in to his demon side entirely and all the power associated with it (unlike Dante, who was still fighting against it at the end of DmC). And the demons, masterless, trapped in the human world, and looking for someone with the power to lead them, recognize that in him immediately. So he becomes their new boss.

(And Dante is an idiot who could have avoided this whole mess with a little diplomacy and maybe not trying to murder his brother, but noooo. So now Vergil's a crazy demon messiah twice as powerful as he was before and he's gathering an army that's going to smear Dante all over the sidewalk like a dung beetle.)

I liked it a lot, actually. It demonstrated metaphor and the hero's struggle a lot better than DmC did, though it could have been more complex (seriously, Vergil, your mother's "favorite"? Really? Are you twelve?) It also made me sympathize with the main character more. Vergil's a twit, but it's shown to us why he's so messed up in the head, and also why it's his own damn fault, so I felt bad for him without feeling he was justified. Never got that sense of flawed humanity with Dante.

But that Super Saiyan hair was stupid. So stupid. He looked like a troll doll.

I agree with you on 100%! Ahh finally someone who understand VD's.
First of all, who would not be mad at his own brother whom you loved, after he killed you and betray? And remember that Vergil didn't even done anything yet, but regardless of that he was killed. To add more irony he wanted only to help humanity, yeah without trust but he didn't wanted to control them to take their souls. So I agree in this scene Dante done something really stupid and harsh, he even didn't feel any regrets after what he had done. But even though Vergil was betrayed and trapped in his own personal hell, at first we can see that after meeting with Kat (ofc I know that she was only delusion) he wanted to help her, only after she started to attack him verbally and physically he "killed" her. (Ha! to be exact, he killed her only after she attacked him physically). After that we meet fake-Dante who killed him and attacked physically and verbally in his mind, so yeah in my opinion Vergil had his reasons to started hate both of them even more (remember that he is loosing his mind so I don't think he knows that they are only delusions). And then we meet Eva who is like a good-side for him, he started to act like a twelve-years boy I have to agree but remember that we meet her almost at the end after he killed "Kat" and "Dante" so he is really deep in his dark side. But after all he didn't killed Eva, to me it's like a chance for him to be a hero once again because Vergil didn't really get rid of his good side eternally. I noticed that in the scene with Eva, after she said that she is so glad to see him again, he made really sad face, and I think that he believes that he killed real Dante. In my opinion he has really big regrets towards Eva and Sparda because when he said "Everything you taught me was wrong! All you gave me was power, nothing else." he thinks about not having family, love and real home. Don't forget that he loses twice his parents, the real and surrogate ones and after he founded his brother, he betrays and killed him. We can see even in the comic that he fall in love with Kat, so he was able to develop human feelings. To me Vergil is the most human character in the whole DmC and I really liked this DLC it was good evolution for his character and instead of I-don't-really-have-good-reasons-to-be-a-bad-guy-and-only-I-want-is-more-power we got I want to have revenge and to do that I must get more power.
Btw. It's so obviously in the ending scene that demons started to see Vergil as his new leader not someone who started to have power to control them.

I am really sorry for a grammar mistakes but english is not my native language, I am still learning ;)
 

Ether0

Nephilim Lover
Here are your choices:


and

tumblr_m78q7zURAz1r7nxijo1_500.jpg

"THE SAVIOUR IS COMING" X500 Mega Pope.
Oh well I meant like entirely new, both those villains sucked, I think at this point if they have Vergil, NT has enough license to make an entirely new villain. And dear god why did they make Arius exist???
 

ZeroLove

Well-known Member
Oh well I meant like entirely new, both those villains sucked, I think at this point if they have Vergil, NT has enough license to make an entirely new villain. And dear god why did they make Arius exist???

What are you talking about? Arius was coo-... aweso-... kinda nea-... Okay, you're right...
 
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