What should/shouldn't rub off from DmC into DMC5?

[VineBigBoss]

Here's me doing some rough runs with a dreamrunner on dmd limiting the amount of parried attacks and trying to keep a forward momentum, it goes from most successful to least successful, at least in my eyes, there's about 5 runs so yeah, I do feel that with a little bit more work I could be even more aggressive, and avoid dodging or being parried. But let me know what you think.

Also, I guess to be fair, Dreamrunners are like mini-bosses, so their ninja like ability to parry makes sense, and I really happen to love the ebb and flow of battling them.

Superb usage of kablooey on that one, good property to use to at least negate the recovery of the Dreamrunners after their parries. My experience with the Dreamrunners was different than this, they parried me more often because i don't make good usage of kablooey for that battle, so i developed another techniques to kill them quickly, who relys mostly on demon evade and overdrive or Trinity Smash. And i got your idea of a mini-boss, if i remember well they mention the Dreamrunner (and that drakosomething, the upgraded Dreamrunner) as "elite guards" of Mundus, so i understand your point. But if you look with care, the battles can goes to opposed extremes: or the player dominates the monster (after they find something like Kablooey to make use) giving him no room to fight back, or the monster abuse of his skill to stop the combat action, it's still not the best design choice but at least there's ways to deal with it without stoping the dynamic of the fight itself.

And i enjoyed the fights with the Dreamrunners too, when i played on DMD i needed to put some thought on how i were attacking them, before learning some general tactics to beat them i was kinda demon evading everywhere and getting my combos parried often, sometimes taking the damage from their counter-attacks.

 

[OppressedWriter]

Well, wouldn't you say that the player in the video you posted also dominates the monster once he masters a technique? I promise that what i'm doing in that video is not as easy as it looks. Those were 5 runs out of like 50, the payoffs I execute, if you do not nail them perfectly, then the dreamrunner will do a helmbreaker, and will force you to either do a demon dodge or be attacked. I was deliberately trying to keep a forward momentum with minimal use of demon dodge, just to showcase that an extremely aggressive and fast method of execution was possible. I also think with a little bit more work, I can literally kill him without moving from a single spot. I just need to figure out what to do after the shotgun bomb, another charged richo shot might do the trick, but I'll have to keep practicing.

 

[VineBigBoss]

Well, wouldn't you say that the player in the video you posted also dominates the monster once he masters a technique? I promise that what i'm doing in that video is not as easy as it looks. Those were 5 runs out of like 50, the payoffs I execute, if you do not nail them perfectly, then the dreamrunner will do a helmbreaker, and will force you to either do a demon dodge or be attacked. I was deliberately trying to keep a forward momentum with minimal use of demon dodge, just to showcase that an extremely aggressive and fast method of execution was possible. I also think with a little bit more work, I can literally kill him without moving from a single spot. I just need to figure out what to do after the shotgun bomb, another charged richo shot might do the trick, but I'll have to keep practicing.

Yeah, in the videos i've posted the players mostly dominates the monsters but they still fight back in someway, that was what i'm trying to say in the last post; the Arachnes and Fallen Angels that i used as examples fights back with ease even being "dominated" by the players combos and tricks. That's why i've mentioned "extreme opposes" regarding the Dreamrunner battle. I don't think that an average player can pull out what you have done this easy, but i would need to play more and give a try on this technologies to tell you with some precision how the learning curve would play out, i'll surely give it a try when i go to my friend's house to train SSFIV again.

 

[OppressedWriter]

Excellent, look forward to your analysis after some hands on testing.

Moved video we're discussing to this post from the other one.

 

[Sunaka Marién]

Should keep:
- Face capturing. Yeah, I know it's expensive and stuff, but I'm one of those who care a lot about the characters, the way they are being portrayed, etc. so I really want it to stay.
- A little more focus on the story and more character development.
- Dante not beeing as much as a goofball as he was in DMC4.
- The lock on system, but with the option of manual lock on added. Like, as long as you don't press the lock on button, it just works as the lock on in DmC, and when you push it, it'll be the way it was like in the classics.
- Evade button. Not really sure how or if it could be implemented in DMC's controle theme without altering it too much :ermm:

Shouldn't keep:
- Color coded enemies (-.-);
- The low difficulty. I mean, DMC has never been all *that* difficult on easy mode, which was easy enough for newcommers, so I still don't see why the overall difficulty had to be lowered in the first place :/

That's all I can think of for now (._.)

 

[Stylish Nero]

Should keep:
- Face capturing. Yeah, I know it's expensive and stuff, but I'm one of those who care a lot about the characters, the way they are being portrayed, etc. so I really want it to stay.
- A little more focus on the story and more character development.
- Dante not beeing as much as a goofball as he was in DMC4.
- The lock on system, but with the option of manual lock on added. Like, as long as you don't press the lock on button, it just works as the lock on in DmC, and when you push it, it'll be the way it was like in the classics.
- Evade button. Not really sure how or if it could be implemented in DMC's controle theme without altering it too much :ermm:

Shouldn't keep:
- Color coded enemies (-.-);
- The low difficulty. I mean, DMC has never been all *that* difficult on easy mode, which was easy enough for newcommers, so I still don't see why the overall difficulty had to be lowered in the first place :/

That's all I can think of for now (._.)

Everything except for the first one I either agree or is neutral about.

You don't need realistic high priced motion capturing to feel attached to characters or even care about them.

I was able to be attached to characters and feel stronger for them in games that weren't in 3D, had low quality (old school) graphics, didn't even had voice acting.

High quality motion capture is sentimental stuff. If you can feel attached and care for a character in a BOOK technology isn't a necessity to draw out emotion.

Its the writer's/directors/(voice) actors duty to make us care for the characters or portray them in a more embracing manner not the technology (it can help making that easier though).

Then again its how the voice actors execute their lines and how the motion capture actors execute their roles. I mean I find more emotion in Helena's couple moments in RE6 (shocking right) than any moment in DmC.

DmC just had the technology. It was lacking the execution....granted the voice acting was either good (Phineas and Mundus) to okay (Eva, Lilith, and Bob) to mediocre/average(everyone else) to plain bad (Dante).

 

[nightrunner_ks]

Great things about DmC's combat which they should add:

-Larger variety of moves(not the number, but what they do. DmC may have a smaller number of moves but the moves are more interesting than in any previous DMC game)
-Plenty of Just Charges
-Revenant Bomb, Richoshot (Revenant Bomb > Gunstinger)

**** they shouldn't ever think of again

-Coloured enemies
-Slow animations
-Heavy ass axes
-Demon Dodge

 

[Stylish Nero]

Great things about DmC's combat which they should add:

-Larger variety of moves(not the number, but what they do. DmC may have a smaller number of moves but the moves are more interesting than in any previous DMC game)
-Plenty of Just Charges
-Revenant Bomb, Richoshot (Revenant Bomb > Gunstinger)

**** they shouldn't ever think of again

-Coloured enemies
-Slow animations
-Heavy ass axes
-Demon Dodge

The first one I can break apart......but not now its too late for that.

Just Charges?

You do know Revenant Bomb is basically Nero's Blue Rose maximum charge shot so DMC already had that before DmC. Also, Revenant Bomb is a charge shot while Gunstinger is a non-charge move (somewhat like Fireworks). If anything your better off comparing them to the Shotgun's (Coyote A) charge shot. Plus guns like Nightmare Beta (DMC1) and the Sniper Rifle (DMC3) were able to shoot ricocheting bullets so including Ricoshot in a DMC5 would be like reusing old elements from past DMC games.

 

[Awake]

Nothing from DmC should be incorporated into DMC 5...game failed for a reason

 

[Dusk Stalker]

Also, I guess to be fair, Dreamrunners are like mini-bosses, so their ninja like ability to parry makes sense, and I really happen to love the ebb and flow of battling them.

Their actually easy to parry....Charged Eryx attack leaves them open 90% of the time, Snake Eye ruins them badly and is easy to follow up since I did a Rave Raker float.

 

[OppressedWriter]

Their actually easy to parry....Charged Eryx attack leaves them open 90% of the time, Snake Eye ruins them badly and is easy to follow up since I did a Rave Raker float.

Again, I never said they're hard I honestly haven't played a game that "hard" in so long, Dark souls was one of my favorite games and its not hard to me, the whole point of DMC is how much variety one has to dispose of enemies, I was only showcasing that a good enough player can dispatch a dreamrunner in more creative ways, ways that are less dodge and parry reliant, that was the particular issue VineBoss and I were discussing. Watch the video he posted and watch mine, and then you can see that I also utilize various techniques to keep the fight close range just like the player does in the video he posted.

If you have something that can maybe help me understand your criticism, like a video of an enemy that is actually challenging and still allows combat flexibility from an earlier DMC game, I'm all eyes and ears.

 

[OppressedWriter]

Great things about DmC's combat which they should add:

-Larger variety of moves(not the number, but what they do. DmC may have a smaller number of moves but the moves are more interesting than in any previous DMC game)
-Plenty of Just Charges
-Revenant Bomb, Richoshot (Revenant Bomb > Gunstinger)

**** they shouldn't ever think of again

-Coloured enemies
-Slow animations
-Heavy ass axes
-Demon Dodge

Colored Enemies, sure, but it would be better if they bring them back with some modifications like they take more damage from certain weapons and less from others, that would be a smarter way to influence usage of different weapons w/o limiting combo potential.
The slow animations aren't slow if you use turbo mode. They're pretty goddamn fast. So maybe turbo mode should be a reward from the start.

The Axe, I don't really care, its not my most used weapon, so yeah if it got replaced I wouldn't be shedding any tears.

Demon dodge, no way, I love the visual effect of that skill, you can nerf the damn damage boost to zero for all I care, but not the effect please not the effect its so aesthetically pleasing with angel dodge. You have to combine the two to get the ultimate effect, you dodge in slow mo and rapidly dodge back into place with angel dodge.

 

[EvilX-81]

Oh yea, I forgot to mention; interactivity with bosses. One of the things that bugged me about DMC4 was that all the bosses felt like I was hitting a living brickwall, unflinching to everything you hit them with until they finally go into their stagger animation. While Nero at least had those Buster cinemas, Dante in comparison felt less "effective" against them visually.

However, DmC is not exactly exempt to this either, but the fight with Bob Barbas was awesome for the mere reason of hitting him felt somewhat like you were hitting a gigantic head with titanic power when it reels back and forth from the hits (even if it sometimes isn't very accurate ion it's reactions, lol). Bayonetta did this good as well; bosses have pained animations when you hit them most of the time and Buster animations, instead of no-selling your hits until they suddenly decide to collapse for a moment.

While the quick cinemas could be questionable, to see a large boss take a hit from a full charged Uppercut/Real Impact and watch them fly across the screen in real time would be damned cool.

 

[OppressedWriter]

snip

Yeah realtime stagger animations like the way Bob Barbas, Hunter, and Mundus Spawn's faces react for all bosses would be amazing instead of the scripted stuff that happens in the fight for Vergil. because I'm always about to take him way into the air for a super air battle and then bam, cutscene, back on ground.

 

[Sunaka Marién]

snip

I know that it doesn't need advanced technology to make you care about the characters Like, I had that manga-phase a view years ago, and there were moments when I was literally crying, when L died in Death Note for example. I just like face capturing, because it makes them feel even more real.
Gotta admit that I've never been as attached to any characters as the ones in DmC, but hey, that's just how I feel about it
I personally really enjoyed the voice acting in DmC, *especially* Dante's :< Tim did screw up some lines, though :/

 

[Kam]

Do:

• lower barrier of entry. In traditional DMC games, if you weren't already a pro, the game was boring and your combat looked like ****
• limbo is awesome, love the art style and some of the surreal environments

Don't:

• just because you raised the skill floor doesn't mean you need to drop the skill ceiling. Give lower level players their awesome combos, but keep the crazy high level stuff too for people to really master and get crazy with
• MT framework. Unreal engine did not impress me
• Half angel, Half demon. Completely butchers the lore and motivations of dante, without offering a suitable alternative
• Orange and blue bloom everywhere
• angel and demon stance. It didn't work in heavenly sword, and I disliked it here too, though DMC4's on the fly stance system was also kind of clunky, and a lot of the moves could have been integrated as part of the core moveset instead of making you switch stance to use them. I guess use neither game's version, make something new
• cut out gunslinger. As a die hard DMC3 gunslinger, I was constantly disappointed by gun combat in DmC
• fedora trench coat

 

[nightrunner_ks]

The first one I can break apart......but not now its too late for that.

Just Charges?

You do know Revenant Bomb is basically Nero's Blue Rose maximum charge shot so DMC already had that before DmC. Also, Revenant Bomb is a charge shot while Gunstinger is a non-charge move (somewhat like Fireworks). If anything your better off comparing them to the Shotgun's (Coyote A) charge shot. Plus guns like Nightmare Beta (DMC1) and the Sniper Rifle (DMC3) were able to shoot ricocheting bullets so including Ricoshot in a DMC5 would be like reusing old elements from past DMC games.

Richoshot is definitely not original, but it has better implementation in DmC. Having it replace the useless Ebony and Ivory charge shots was a great choice. That's the definition of streamlining the combat.

Likewise, the Revenant bomb is a better implementation of the Blue Rose maximum charge, because its timed. That way, you can charge another gun or another weapon while waiting for the detonation, for example, Showdown. The Revenant itself is an upgrade over the Coyote. Its a great secondary launcher and after a knockdown, a useful eject. You can also JC it, as a result of that.

 

[Stylish Nero]

Richoshot is definitely not original, but it has better implementation in DmC. Having it replace the useless Ebony and Ivory charge shots was a great choice. That's the definition of streamlining the combat.

Likewise, the Revenant bomb is a better implementation of the Blue Rose maximum charge, because its timed. That way, you can charge another gun or another weapon while waiting for the detonation, for example, Showdown. The Revenant itself is an upgrade over the Coyote. Its a great secondary launcher and after a knockdown, a useful eject. You can also JC it, as a result of that.

Well in past games "Ricoshot" was instaneous, no need for charging (although Nightmare Gamma's Ricoshot took up DT runes).

As for Blue Rose's Maximum charge shot.....what do you mean it wasn't timed..after a few seconds it does goes off. It even goes off at level 2 charge shot and the explosion can even harm nearby enemies. Plus any level of Blue Rose's charged shot can blast enemies that are downed into air. So if utilized really well Blue Rose can be used in various effective ways.

As for E & I charge shot. DmC's version isn't better just different cause E&I charge boost can in fact be implemented in other E&I attacks such as Rain Storm and Twosome Time. Plus being in DT allowed for instant fully charged E&I shots. Plus I'm not sure if its all the guns in DmC but I do know that the E&I in DmC do less damage (is weaker) than E&I in past DMCs even when they're not charged.

I'm so sure on the shotguns but I think your right on that but Jump Canceling as a whole in DmC is much easier to use/pull off than in past DMC's.

Plus JC isn't the only way to keep comboing in the air (with DmC JC is practically pointless since there are plenty of other mechanics to stay in the air). DMC4 did had Guard Canceling and I was able to cancel various Gunslinger moves to follow up another attack. My method of staying in the air with the Shotgun was using an aerial fireworks, switching to Rainstorm, using the gatling from Pandora and using Fireworks and repeat, however mix it up Rainstorm, gatling, Fireworks, gatling, Fireworks, Gatling, Rainstorm....to make it easier I JC with the gatling shots. That is a move I recently learned and mastered....now I have trouble mixing other attacks into it.

Where was I....well Revenant does have one thing over the past Shotguns, is that Fireworks can not just only keep you in the air but it sends you higher in the air a little bit....however its like you said "streamlining"..one reason why plenty of fans dislike DmC's combat its that its too streamlined so using streamlined mechanics from DmC in a DMC game won't be of everyone's benefit.

 

[Martius]

Do:

• lower barrier of entry. In traditional DMC games, if you weren't already a pro, the game was boring and your combat looked like ****

It depends on person. DMC3DA was first game in series for me and i love it. Going through learning curve can be fun. Thats why we have difficulties setting.

 

[IncarnatedDemon]

No offence but DMC games have easier difficulties and even a automatic mode for those who want that.

If you dont want a challenge, then dont play the game. That simple.

Or should we give a SSS rank to a player for pressing same button three times in row?